Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:02 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:15 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:21 pm
Posts: 335
Hobie Team Engineers and Planners-

Last weekend I put my relatively new Adventure to the test in a local kayak race (Battle on the Bayou in Ocean Springs, MS) thanks to the Fairhope Alabama dealer (Tony) who was able to swap a bad pedal on my drive unit with a good one while the replacement part is in transit. Link to the race site: http://www.battleonthebayou.com/

You can see a couple photos from the race by clicking the link here: http://mobilepaddler.blogspot.com/2010/03/362010-battle-of-bayou-race-ocean.html There were a few other Hobie mirage boats in the race including a Revolution and a Tandem. Hobie was represented. :D

I pedaled and paddled at the same time most of the race, with the rudder up - a great combo for an aerobic workout. The curvy 9.7 mile race course had very little current and there was a little headwind from time to time on some of the northward turns. I'm happy to report that the Adventure, with ST Turbo Fins, sped past almost all the kayakers paddling plastic boats, including some with narrow widths like 21 inches. The Adventure has a 27.5" wide beam and it was still on the tail of a surf-ski (less than 20" wide) after several miles. Some said I had a distinct advantage pedaling and padding at the same time and asked if that was fair or if I'd be disqualified. Problem is, it is a distinct DISADVANTAGE to race a 27.5" wide kayak against a 21" wide kayak. I have to work much harder to go as fast.

Unofficially (official results not yet available), I crossed the finish line in 17th place out of 120 kayaks/canoes. That's in the upper 15 percentile. The average speed was 5.3 mph for one hour and 49 minutes. Several people were stunned that the Hobie pedal boat blew them away so bad and they are now taking a closer look at Hobie. Not a bad for a senior citizen over 50. Boy, I can only imagine the results if there was a longer narrower Mirage racing kayak version available...HINT HINT :roll: Please entertain the idea again at one of your boardroom meetings. Thanks.

I keep saying, if you make it available, the racing sport will develop. Ten years ago it was an oddity to see a kayaker on the water around here. Now seeing a kayaker on the water is common. In 2003, I was about the first one in this area to have a Hobie pedal kayak. Seven years later pedal kayak popularity continues to grow. The evidence of the popularity of Hobie Mirage Pedal Boats for Fitness (besides fishing) is clear. Did you know that the 2010 Mississippi State Games (June 19th) has a Kayak Race category and it has a "Hobie with Pedal" boat class? http://www.stategamesofms.org/site1/?q=node/139 Are you getting any ideas yet? :idea:

Yes Hobie - there is a need for Speed...

Rob


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:37 pm 
Offline
Hobie Approved Guru

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 2424
Location: Escondido
Rnykster, congratulations on a great race! Not bad for an "old man" :wink: Sounds like you may have won your class, especially if you were right on the heels of those surf skis!

Interesting comments about pedaling and paddling simultaneously. It seems to me that human power is human power and how you choose to expend it shouldn't matter. Coincidentally, there is an excellent Adventure racer out here who pedaled and paddled for part of a race a couple of years ago. Bringing out the paddle didn't net him any additional gain though against the other Adventures. In the next race he kept it stowed and ran away from the field with the Mirage Drive alone. 8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:18 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:38 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Roswell, GA - USA
I am interested in this speed concept for a mirage drive kayak.

My question is will a narrow kayak work with the mirage drive? The reason I say this is with a narrow sea kayak or surf ski the paddle is what you use to keep it upright and stable. Without a paddle to use with bracing strokes in the rough stuff, won't you just flip the mirage drive kayak in waves. Maybe that is why all of the mirage drive kayaks are so wide. Even the adventure is 27" wide which is much wider than even faster touring kayaks (usually 24" - 21" wide).

Does the fins on the mirage drive provide some stability to the kayak when moving?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:49 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Posts: 27
As Chet3 says, a relatively wide hull is probably unavoidable due to not having the paddle available for active stability. However, if you let go of the requirement that the main hull must provide stability and instead use a pair of small amas, you can increase performance significantly. For an indication of what is possible using that configuration, the boat holding the current record for the longest distance travelled in 24 hours using only human power is "Critical Power 2" in which Greg Kolodziejzyk pedaled 245 km.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypKtTLkyLUo


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:12 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:21 pm
Posts: 335
Chet3 wrote:
...My question is will a narrow kayak work with the mirage drive? The reason I say this is with a narrow sea kayak or surf ski the paddle is what you use to keep it upright and stable. Without a paddle to use with bracing strokes in the rough stuff, won't you just flip the mirage drive kayak in waves...Does the fins on the mirage drive provide some stability to the kayak when moving?
Momentum does provide what they call "secondary stability." I don't believe narrowing down the Adventure to the width of a surf ski will work because the hull will probably be bouncing too much, but hey, unless it is designed and tried, who knows what the Mirage can do on a more narrow, longer hull. Most definitely though, if the hull is narrowed, there will be some loss of stability. If I'm racing though, I'll be paddling and pedaling at the same time so the paddles will provide stability as well as steering.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:26 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:21 pm
Posts: 335
Upset_Nerd wrote:
...However, if you let go of the requirement that the main hull must provide stability and instead use a pair of small amas, you can increase performance significantly.
Good point. I figured narrowing it down to 22 to 24 inches wide would be feasible but with the concept of small amas, perhaps a 21 foot long 18" wide pedal boat is possible. No doubt such a pedal would leave surfsks behind and would require a new boat class. Might not work very well in a chop though.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:10 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 9329
Location: Oceanside, California
Fyi... we have mounted MirageDrives into narrow touring hulls. Seems that the speed advantage is not that great as you get over 16' when using the drive.

_________________
Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:57 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:42 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Houston, TX
Matt,
Interesting that Hobie has put the Mirage drive in some narrow touring hulls. So there was minimal speed gain from the 16' Adventure hull to a longer (18' maybe) and narrower hull? I figured the law of dimishing returns was somewhere around there, I was hoping there would still be some noticable gain in a, say 18' long x 23" wide hull. Does that pretty much mean the Adventure will be the fastest Hobie hull for some time to come?

TheBaker


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:41 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:37 am
Posts: 95
Location: Lafayette, La, USA
Thx Rob for posting your story. I really wanted to make that event in my trad yak. I understand one of our club members won one of the classes in a specialized race boat I think. He showed up at the next meeting with the green helmet trophy. I'm going to ask him if he was chased by you.

That is encouraging and impressive that you held that pace for so long. A good benchmark for sure. I was able able short sprint my new Revo at 5.3 with stock fins only, no paddle just for grins.

That was a great event,nice weather, big turnout, and I saw some nice pics later.

Mark
Lafayette, La

_________________
2010 Hobie Revolution *sold
2010 Hobie Outback
One Ocean Storm cedar stripbuilt
2009 Native Ultimate 12


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:30 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:57 am
Posts: 270
Location: Perth, Australia
Thanks for the story rob...

check out this vid for some inspiration. Obviously not a Mirragedrive so probably a prop so more stable but still slim.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOPSXWicBK0&NR=1[/youtube]

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:32 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:21 pm
Posts: 335
mmiller wrote:
Fyi... we have mounted MirageDrives into narrow touring hulls. Seems that the speed advantage is not that great as you get over 16' when using the drive.
Did you try it with fins bigger than the ST Turbos? If you use a narrower hull, it should be a little easier to move through the water than a 27.5 inch wide kayak. Maybe what is needed is a Mirage Drive Unit with a little more umph used in conjunction with a narrower hull. What kind of material was the narrow touring hulls made out of, plastic or fiberglass?

Rob


Last edited by Rnykster on Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:55 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:21 pm
Posts: 335
ChaosDave wrote:
Thanks for the story rob...check out this vid for some inspiration. Obviously not a Mirragedrive so probably a prop so more stable but still slim.
Greg Kolodziejzyk is obviously in good shape, but he was only able to average about 6.3 mph overall for his record (but that was for 24 straight hours). Somewhere I remember reading that the Mirage Drive is more efficient than a Propeller type drive. If that claim to better efficiency is true, a high performance Mirage Pedal boat should be able to surpass the performance of Greg's boat using the same type of hull. The hull material probably factors into the speed. Michael Lampi with the Sound Rowers racing club in Washington has finished a lot of 1-2 hour races in his Cadence propeller pedal boat with average speed over 6 mph, and it is about as wide as the Adventure, but it's hull is fiberglass and it has a sharper bow.

Rob


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:31 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:21 pm
Posts: 335
mnormand wrote:
...I'm going to ask him if he was chased by you...That is encouraging and impressive that you held that pace for so long. A good benchmark for sure.
Thanks Mark. I was following Leonard Vergunst's plastic type surfski for quite a while but his speed was a little faster and he was about 3 minutes ahead at the end.

In the beginning of the race, when just pedaling, the GPS was showing about 4.8-5.2 mph and every time I picked up the paddle and used it at the same time the speed jumped up about to about 5.3 to 5.7 mph. So, I used the combination of pedal and paddle for most of the race as it did pick up overall speed.

The speed statistics tab on the GPS track (see link below) was interesting as it showed 4 dips in speed. This is when pedaling stopped in order to go into the hatch between the legs just for a second to get a cold drink. Paddlers were also having the same problem. When they stopped paddling to take a drink was when I paddled extra hard while they went slow which made up consider distance on them. The sprint at the finish line shows crossing the line at 6.3 mph and I was maxed out. I can't imagine how Greg kept up a speed of 6.3 mph for 24 hours.

http://www.everytrail.com/view_trip.php?trip_id=521184&code=bc71be1edbe1e6762d6702a157a64d05


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:23 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:15 pm
Posts: 27
Gregs boat is probably very close to being the optimal human powered boat from an efficiency standpoint. There's a very large and interesting thread on http://www.boatdesign.net on pedal boats started by it's designer, Rick Willoughby, and he has tried a lot of different designs.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-d ... 23345.html
http://www.rickwill.bigpondhosting.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:02 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:21 pm
Posts: 335
Upset_Nerd wrote:
... Rick Willoughby, and he has tried a lot of different designs....
Thanks for sharing the interesting links. I wonder what super big hobie fins used on a flyak would do... (http://keystonekayaks.com/kayak_018.htm)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group