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 Post subject: Pedal, Paddle, or Both?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:06 pm 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Which gives you the fastest and how long can you hold it?

Paddling

For a proper paddling stoke see:

http://www.usawildwater.com/training/fwdstroke.htm

As an old canoe paddler (OC-1/6) seems like I burn a lot more glycogen paddling than when I

Pedal. See:

http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=2778

Man it seems like I can hold 3 knots forever. Low heart rate just burning fats no glycogen(carbos- your body is limited here to~2 hours why marathon runners "hit the wall".) But see A & B below.

Or can you go faster combing these two techniques,

For how long?

How do you combine these two techniques cordination wise (I have a hard tme walking & chewing gum) ? What happens when you do? How do you coordinate them? Optimize for a fishing trip for example.

For those not familiar with the biology the body can move stored glycogen around to different parts (arms, legs, middle muscular, etc) but the total supply is is limited to ~ 2 hours.(For a thorough discussion see Noakes " Lore of Running".)

You can thus expend energy faster using glycogen, but OTOH with fats you can go very LOOOOOOOONG at lower rates. This does not imply pedaling is better than paddling. Consider the effects of:

A. Decreasing your stroke rate when paddling

B. Increasing your pedaling rate.

Then we also have to remember to crank the mind able compute wind power (sailing) into the trip equation . But that's another subject after we get through this one.

What is your opinion based on your own experience?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:34 pm 
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Location: Escondido
Pedaling works better for me, both for speed and endurance, especially upwind when you have a lower profile!. (Would like to try one of these "spoon" paddles though).

Combination Peddle/paddle requires too much concentration; no fun; no endurance; continually interrupted to tweak the rudder. If there's a speed advantage, it would be for a short burst only (for me); it's not worth it IMO! Maybe I'm just too uncoordinated! :shock:

With the new "Turbo" fins, there's no contest (at least in sprints -- can't say for endurance).


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 Post subject: Endurance
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:57 pm 
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Roadrunner wrote:
Combination Peddle/paddle requires too much concentration; no fun; no endurance; continually interrupted to tweak the rudder. If there's a speed advantage, it would be for a short burst only (for me); it's not worth it IMO!
If you are going to pedal and paddle at the same time, put your rudder up. Let your paddles steer for you.

No fun? Have you never tried to pedal/paddle in a 3-4 foot chop while surfing the waves? Wow, that'll get your heart thumping.

Other than wave surfing, the only real reasons to pedal/paddle would be for an aerobic workout and for racing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:32 pm 
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Do they have surf in Alabama? :lol:


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 Post subject: Surf's Up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:41 pm 
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Roadrunner wrote:
Do they have surf in Alabama? :lol:
Hurricane season starts in June. Come on over when we get a Catagory 3. :roll:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:57 pm 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Tried a couple of things today.

1. Sat upright and paddled. Concentrated on getting body rotation. Kept feet instirups.

2. Started pedaling. Paddle strokes seemed to get the yak up higher on the water so pedaling was more effective.

3. As in dry land drill on machine (pics later, but see signature) you can't do both at once fast. But the yak itself will move fast when both means of propulsion are used.

4. Also tried pedaling first. Found I could insert paddle strokes by concentrating . Could not keep it continuous, but definitely contributed.

5. Disassembled yak paddle and use one end on one side only ala canoe while pedaling. This could be effective with a canoe paddle. Will try one & report next week.

Big problem seems to me that your body is not in the right position when pedaling to paddle. Going to have to adjust something. Where?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:38 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:54 pm
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
Im sorry...I have a Hobie Outback....what exactly IS a paddle? :lol:

Mate, I got it for fishing. Why the hell would I want to paddle?

Cheers,
Jake


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:41 am 
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Location: Sandy Eggo
I'm with you on that one Jake! Why paddle an Outback when you've got a Mirage Drive? As I see it the paddle is provided for backing up and little more. If paddling is your thing, buy a Quest.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:06 am 
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Look guys.

I bought my Big A for the same thing. To fish.

And I spend 95% of my time pedaling.

I have also found I can go faster in a sustained mode pedaling and paddling and am trying to explore that aspect . Using the paddle running downwind on swells is useful too.

If you have nothing to contribute fine. If you do say something.

:twisted:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:59 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:01 pm
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Location: Waco, Texas
Aloha,

Thanks for starting the thread and posting the link. I read the article and ordered the DVD. Anything that helps my paddling stroke will be great.

I would think that peddling would be easiest for most people because generally the legs have the strongest muscles of the body, but like any other muscles, they must be exercised to learn the activity and maintain any strength or endurance at all. And various types of exercise affect different muscles even in the legs, making it difficult (tiring) to switch from one type of physical activity (aerobics say) to raquetball and still maintain the ability to maintain a good game. In aerobics, you are moving all of the time, frequently both upper and lower body, for 45, 60, or more minutes, but when you switch to the raquetball court, you move to a different type of exercise, short, fast runs, quick starts and stops, and even though you are in shape, you tire rapidly until you adapt to the new sport. Right now, my legs are in fairly good shape because of hiking and backpacking; my arms are not. Because of that, I am exercising to build upper body strength and tighten, strengthen my abdomen.

Paddling and peddling in concert would be difficult, not just because of coordination necessary, but because of the different types of strenuous exercise required at the same time while using all of the major muscle masses of the body. Its possible, but its a challenge.

Thanks again for the thread.

Ray

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:57 pm 
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
AlohaDan wrote:
Look guys.

If you have nothing to contribute fine. If you do say something.

:twisted:


You need to chill out man.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:58 pm 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Harold -mahalo for your comments.

I've tried slowing down pedaling a bit and getting the paddle catch at the time the leg on the catch side is fully extended. Seems to work as long as you can keep the rhythm.

I asked Brent Reitz his opinion on this and he seemed to think that that catch position would be the way to go.

With the larger fins attached to the Mirage drive I suspect your pedaling rhythm will slow down enough so your legs don't exceed paddling stroke.

Unfortunately busted my pi-tot tube so am going by bow wake created as far as speed generated.

Let us know how things turn out in Texas.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:15 pm
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Location: Sandy Eggo
Chanquetas... Mahalo for YOUR comments!! :twisted:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:04 am 
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Location: Hawaii, Big Island
Here's something you can try in the gym.

This one of the leg weight machines where there is a separate weight arm for each leg . You can either press the weights simulatneously similar to a quad machine, or alternate them like I am doing.

Note I'm using Brent's suggestion.

Still have to keep it slow. 55-60 strokes a minute.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:48 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:56 am
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Location: Tallahassee, FL
Dan and others,
I had the same problem in coordinating my pedal and paddle stroke in the BigA, but finally figured out what I was doing wrong. One problem with the BigA is that you sit much lower in the cockpit than in the OB or Sport. So I kept hitting my knees with the paddle shaft. The key is coordinating the extension of your leg on the Mirage Drive with the power stroke of your paddle. I posted the solution a while back, but here it is again, since apparently a lot of folks missed the previous post.

http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=2879

“2. Paddling and pedaling simultaneously
There has been some discussion about this on several boards. Personally. I have always felt a little out of sync doing this, and as a result, generally stick to straight pedaling when in open water, using the paddle mainly when launching or returning. I finally discovered a simple solution to my “out of sync” woes. I noticed that with a normal setting of the Mirage drive for my height, my knees were just about at chest level when both pedals were aligned side by side (flippers fully extended). Thus, when pedaling, I kept banging my knees with the paddle on one side or the other, and it never felt quite right doing both simultaneously. However, if you coordinate your paddle stroke with your Mirage drive stroke, then it all falls into place. You do this by extending, say, your right leg on the Mirage drive pedal. This brings your right knee down to just above waist level. Then, and only then, you perform a starboard sweep stroke with your paddle. This allows your starboard paddle stroke to clear your knee nicely. Ditto for the left knee and the port paddle power stroke. Just a few times doing this alternately on each side will get your upper body in sync with your lower body, and you will be amazed at how smooth your simultaneous paddling/pedaling strokes will become. If you do get out of sync (and you will occasionally), just start over with either the port or starboard paddle stroke, and you will quickly be back up and running. I'm sure that a number of you have already figured this out, or just do it automatically, but it was another one of those “duh, dude” experiences for me. In the below pic, note that my right leg is almost fully extended on the pedal throw, while my paddle shaft is angled down to the right for a simultaneous starboard power stroke with the paddle. Note also that my paddle shaft clears my right knee by several inches at this time.”

Image

Best,
Dick

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