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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:52 am 
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I am trying to decide which to buy and have read the pros and cons. I've read a lot of the posts and it seems like there are 3 issues with the Turbos - 2.5" of added draft, too much leg effort for the speed gained and too much stress on a V1 drive so it causes breakage. I have a REV 13 with older V1 drive and am in pretty good physical condition. I live on a very large lake so added depth is not an issue. I want to increase my cruising range, get a better workout and add the sail feature. Is the leg effort really that much higher with the turbos? Has anyone tried to shorten the turbo's to the ST length? Is V1 Mirage drive breakage a real issue with normal use?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:05 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
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Location: High Point, NC
If you shorten the Turbo's the standard ST fin length you'll have... ST fins.

The Turbo's do allow for more speed at the expense of more effort. In my Revolution 13, the standard ST's will push me to maybe 6 MPH in a sprint. The Turbo's will take me to just over 7 MPH in that same sprint, but again, require a little more effort. Of course, in exchange for the additional effort, the additional speed in the same time frame equates to greater distance.

If you want to just cruise along, you can do so with either. Again, for the same leg speed, the Turbos will push you faster (and therefore farther) but will require just a bit more effort on your part.

The thing is, you can't get something for nothing.

I doubt the Turbos will hurt your drive well unless you push them at maximum effort all the time, which I doubt you'll do. Keep in mind that the PA uses Turbo fins and reports of drive well damage are few and far between against the total number sold and in use.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:15 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:34 pm
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Location: Hobie Cat: Oceanside, CA
The ST Turbo fins are incredibly popular. It will be a bit harder to pedal though, like a higher gear on a bicycle. The ST's are great though and still quick. They are often preferred by smaller people.

You can update your sprockets and masts with a kit (81129022 standard, 81129122 turbo) and then you'd just need the fins. It's just over $100 going this route and I'd recommend it with whichever type of fins you choose to go with.

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Brendan Castile


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:30 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:29 am
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I just upgraded to the ST fins (not turbo) on my Outback. Boy what a difference they make! I chose not to upgrade to the Turbo because of the extra effort required to "push" them. STs are plenty fast in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:05 pm 
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If they made a bigger sail than the Turbo, I'd get that! They require slightly more effort IMO, but honestly -- if you're reasonably fit, it's not an issue, IMO, and I've never tried ST's. Just the conventional sail, and the Turbo.

Downsides, in my mind, are the additional draft, and it does increase stress on the boat. Though I've not had any problems with the newer models, when they beefed up the drive well. And, with a V1 drive you'll need to replace the hubs.

But! If you go to V2 hubs, you also get the screw-in mast which is a far superior design.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:09 pm 
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Between the tubos and the ST fins I would venture a guess of less then three pounds of difference. you will not notice much of a difference or muscle fatigue with either. Stress on the V1 might be somthing to think about, but i would ask Matt a direct questions about that issue. Good Luck


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:31 pm 
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I have a 2009 and 2010 Outback one with ST fins and one with ST turbo fins.
My girl friend uses the ST fins and at a crusing speed we both have the same cadence and stay even over a long distance. At a sprint I can go a little faster but with much more energy spent. Your ST fins can be changed back to standard fins with out removing the mast. ST turbo fins have a longer mast and standard fins will not work. I belive the ST fins for the average person is better over all conditions and you can change to standard fins if there is a problem with the ST fins.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:10 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:17 pm
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Location: Auckland NZ
If you are in good physical condition, don't hesitate: get the Turbos !

The ST fins are too similar to the standard fins once you have built up your poedalling muscles and require the same relatively high cadence.

The Turbos allow you to attain the same speed at a slower cadence but obviously more pressure needs to be exerted per stroke. They also allow you to go faster and/but...

...with Turbo fins if you really step on the gas for hour after hour, as I have done, you will put more pressure on the drive - particularly the fin masts.

Since the fin masts are the same diameter on both turbos and non-turbos, it is obvious that the stresses on the longer turbo masts will be greater and with hard use over time the turbo fin masts do break - always at the same point i.e. they shear at the point where the mast exits from the sprocket assembly.

I never broke a standard length fin mast but have been through many turbo masts over the years - probably 10 or so - but this I attrubute not to a particular problem with the drive or the fins but to me overdoing it ! I have also broken several cables - 2 idler cables and three or four chain cables over the years (the cable breakages can, at least in part, be attributed to my drive being an early one with a less-ideal cable routing than the newer drives and the fact that I pedal exclusively in salt water).

This year I developed a crick in one of my knees when skiing and I have slowed down a bit when pedalling because of this... and I have not broken a mast or cable since!

So in short the upside is faster speed/slower cadence, the downside is the risk of a mast breakage which, experience is telling me, can be reduced through more considerate use.

That said I always carry a spare mast and the tools (and knowledge) to be able to replace a mast and readjust my drive just in case and on several occasions I have had to make use of them. I also carry a couple of spare cables (a chain cable and an idler cable) for the same reason.

We have a duty to be reasonably careful and self-reliant when enjoying the outdoors and the skipper of any "motor" boat should have some knowledge about the mechanical systems on his/her boat. Common sense suggests that any kayaker should equip themsellves to self-rescue either through mending a broken drive, using an alternative means of propulsion (i.e. paddle/sail) or calling a friend to help before resorting to the rescue services - and this applies to Hobie kayakers whether using Turbo fins or not.

I would never go back to the STs or standard fins and I don't think many Turbo users would, so my advice is: get the turbos, don't overdo it when pedalling and equip yourself to overcome a drive breakage independently before you go out!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:00 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
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Location: Escondido
Based on quite a bit of seat time with all three fin types....
susan wrote:
I want to increase my cruising range, get a better workout and add the sail feature. ...am in pretty good physical condition.
Either the ST or Turbo will improve your cruising range. Both are significantly more efficient than standard fins. The actual cruising performance between STs and Turbos is not that much. For a given speed, Turbos are not more difficult to pedal -- you use a slower cadence to get the same speed, similar effort. My reasonably fit daughter pedals Turbos for an hour + without stopping.

Turbos do have more surface area, better acceleration potential, better sprint potential, a higher cruise potential and will give you a better work out IF you tap the potential. By contrast, the ST fins are similar in resistance to the standard fins -- better efficiency improves the performance.

Both STs and Turbos will improve your sailing performance due to a better daggerboard effect -- Turbos more so than STs.
Quote:
Is the leg effort really that much higher with the turbos?
Only to the extent you're pushing the boat faster.
Quote:
Is V1 Mirage drive breakage a real issue with normal use?
Regardless of the fins you choose, you will eventually get a mast wobble and have to replace the sprockets with your "V1" Drive. Turbofins will accelerate this. V2 sprockets have been redesigned to eliminate this problem. I highly recommend that, if you get the Turbo upgrade kit (turbos and masts), you specify threaded masts (no additional cost) and also order v2 sprockets ($32 for the pair plus installation charge if any). Bcastile's alternate recommendation sounds even more economical for the same end result. You do not need the separate (and more expensive) v2 drum upgrade to accommodate these fins. You do not need to purchase any spare masts, as I seriously doubt that you will ever break one without accidentally bending one several times first.

If you decide to get the STs, you can just buy the fins for now and use your existing components (ST fins use standard masts). You could convert to V2 sprockets, but will have to buy the new masts separately.

It's worth noting ...again...that Drive set-up (lube, adjustment and fin setting) makes a big difference in efficiency and performance. A well operating Drive runs smoothly and freely with relaxed clew outhaul settings (STs and Turbos have the adjustable "outhauls"). This difference can be as significant as fin selection in terms of pedaling effort. 8)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:52 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:39 am
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Location: Marco Island, Florida
I have been fishing my Revo now for about a year and have been completely happy with the standard fins. That is until last week. I fished with 4 other mirage drive friends all with turbos. We traveled and fished on the way out and I easily kept up with the group. Although I did notice my cadence was somewhat faster. Then on the way back we traveled the entire way without stopping. We had to cross a couple miles of open water with the wind and tide against us. The turbos immediately pulled 100 yards in front. I pedaled my brains out and could not close the gap. I got exhausted and gave up and went back to a slow cadence. By the time we got back to launch they were out of sight. I asked them if they were pushing hard and they said no just normal cadence. I'll be ordering the bigger fins shortly.

Johnny


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