Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:58 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:54 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:42 pm
Posts: 3
I am thinking shouting buying either an oasis or outfitter. Our family has a fishing camp on the Miramichi River and I am wondering if these kayaks would be suitable in a river with a very strong current. I would be fly fishing from this kayak, but my wife and kids would mainly be using it for basic kayaking. I guess I'm concerned if they would be a stable and safe choice. I don't want to have to invest in a 26 foot motorized canoe, or similar vessel, and would prefer one of these if suitable. Thanks for your thoughts.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:02 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:21 pm
Posts: 2229
Location: Maui, Hawaii
How fast is your strong current?

_________________
Image
http://KayakingBob.com - - - - - Hobie Island Sailing since 2006 - - - - - 2011 & 2012 Hobie AIs and a 2012 TI


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:41 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:52 am
Posts: 145
Location: Phoenix, Az
Was wondering the same thing

_________________
1 Revo 11
3 Revo 13s
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:37 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2072
Location: High Point, NC
I will say that going upstream against any current is easier in a Mirage Drive kayak than a paddle kayak. Unless, of course, you understand about ferry angles and that sort of thing - but I'm not sure what you have in the way of shoals/rapids or the amount of current we're talking about.

A Hobie kayak is going to be more stable than just about any normal sized canoe, but less stable than a rowboat.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:01 pm 
Offline
Hobie Approved Guru

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 2406
Location: Escondido
I'm no expert on rivers, but do know that it us fun and challenging. We took a trip on the Salt a few years ago in a Hobie inflatable Tandem along with a traditional SOT paddling kayak. The inflatables aren't particularly fast so here was our view of the other boat at first:
Image

But then about 2 miles upstream here was our view of the "Scrambler":
Image

Here is some general info that you can apply to your situation: Most of the Hobies can cruise steadily at 4 to 5 MPH and about 1 MPH faster for short sprints (reasonably fit adults with Turbofins). River speeds can vary greatly according to location and time of year. Shorter boats are more responsive downstream, but the longer narrower boats are faster upstream. Water is generally slower near the bank, but you need clear water to run full power upstream (roots, vegetation and shallows can be limiting there).

I believe Hobie does not recommend the use of Mirage Drives in rapids. We had no problem using the Drives in light rapids though. if you do bend a mast, it's not that hard to straighten. Regardless, it's good to have the paddles out for better control and possible fending.
Image

IMO the Oasis would be by far the better tandem choice. It's quite a bit faster upstream and has a shallower draft -- less potential fin damage in rapids. Both are very stable though. 8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:21 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:42 pm
Posts: 3
I tried to search to see if there is a measurement available for the Mirimachi River current, but couldn't find one. It's a fairly large river with a current strong enough to hinder wading in some areas. It moves quickly, I think a lot of my concerns actually relate to safely anchoring the kayak to fly fishing for Atlantic Salmon. I won't need to move around when anchored, but the kayak would be stationary in a strong current. I won't be standing.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:02 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:07 pm
Posts: 1047
Location: Ontario, Canada
I can't speak to how the boat would be in your river, but noticed that you're trying to decide between the Oasis and Outfitter.

Having spent the past year preparing to purchase a Tandem Mirage drive kayak, and having recently bought an Oasis, I have to say that I can't see a great reason to get the Outfitter. I believe in Canadian dollars, the difference in the two boats is only about $100 bucks. But it's my opinion that the 2011 and newer Oasis is a far better value despite the extra money that it costs.

Roadrunner has some great reviews of the Oasis a while back (and he's the expert, and Hobie Approved Guru for kayaks on this forum), and I've posted my initial thoughts just recently.

Happy shopping, I hope that you get the answers that you're looking for in regards to use on your river.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:55 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:17 pm
Posts: 519
Location: Auckland NZ
Get the Oasis over the Outfitter any day - it is a much better boat. I used to have an Outfitter - my mate still has his Oasis & loves it. If you are a very lightweight couple and have storage constraints that mean that you can't accommodate the Oasis' extra length in your yard/garage/boatshed then the Outfitter may be worth considering but other than that the Oasis is the one to go for IMNSHO.

As to river currents - others have said what needs to be said i.e. that it pretty much depends how fast your river is running.

Don't underestimate the power of a Mirage Drive kayak vs a paddle kayak: for normal human beings (i.e. not competition standard paddlers) the Mirage Drive will beat any paddle kayak over a distance - plugging upstream against a current and the Mirage Drive's advantage over distance will be all the more apparent.

But N.B. that the extra power does not necessarily translate into a speed advantage - light fast paddle kayaks paddled by someone reasonably fit & who knows what they're doing should be able to beat the Mirage Drive over short sprint distances.

Hope this helps.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:30 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:07 pm
Posts: 1047
Location: Ontario, Canada
stobbo wrote:
... the extra power does not necessarily translate into a speed advantage...


Bang on!

I always say that the Mirage Drive gives the user a lot of torque, but not horsepower. It's got pulling power. It's less effected by weight than a paddle. That's why you see pictures online of Hobie's pulling motorboats, and pulling Olympic paddlers backwards in a tug of war, more than you see Hobie's in races. The top speed isn't among the best, but the ability to consistently hold a higher speed is made possible because of the torque that the mirage drive allows. It allows for a more heavily loaded boat to move nearly as quickly as an empty boat.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:57 pm 
Offline
Hobie Approved Guru

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 2406
Location: Escondido
stobbo wrote:
... the extra power does not necessarily translate into a speed advantage...
augaug wrote:
Bang on! The top speed isn't among the best....
Man, I must not get out much. So what SOTs are faster on a length-for-length basis?

Certainly there are faster kayaks -- surf skis, longer SIKS, outriggers. But Hobie doesn't make anything in those categories. So I presume you guys are referring to other Sit-on-Top kayaks.

Hobie doesn't enter races (although a few of their employees do) or report race results. For the most part, most Hobie owners don't seem to have much interest in racing or speed. But if you check out Rnykster's posts you see him cleaning up with his Adventure in class and placing very well overall against other classes as well where Mirage Drives are allowed to compete head to head with paddles.

Here in the San Diego Bay 2 Bay races, the few Mirage Drives that have entered (Adventures, Revolutions, tandems) have won their classes easily during the past 4 years. If there are faster kayaks than Hobies, they're evidently just not showing up. So this year all pedal boats have been separated to allow the paddlers a chance to win. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:21 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:07 pm
Posts: 1047
Location: Ontario, Canada
Roadrunner wrote:
So what SOTs are faster on a length-for-length basis?

Certainly there are faster kayaks -- surf skis, longer SIKS, outriggers. But Hobie doesn't make anything in those categories. So I presume you guys are referring to other Sit-on-Top kayaks.


Uh oh!! Roadrunner doesn't like what I've said! :) I think that you may have taken some of what I said out of context, and I also think that I should fill in what I've already mentioned, with some greater context.

I think, to be fair, I don't compare a Hobie kayak with other Sit On Top kayaks, although I can see why others would. I tend to compare the Hobie's on a Dollar-for-Dollar comparison instead of a length-for-length basis as you suggest.

On a dollar for dollar basis, you can get a pretty nice, sleek, sea kayak like I used to have before I became addicted to Hobies. My previous post mentions that "top-speed" isn't the best, and I stand by that. On a dollar for dollar basis, I'm confident that the hull design of my former sea kayak would allow a faster top speed than any of the Hobie's that I've owned.

Having said that, if I had to choose a boat to win a race, it would be my old Adventure. Getting maximum speed out of a traditional, sleek sea-kayak, involves proper form. That's tough to maintain as you get tired. The Hobie's allow you to maintain peak efficient form indefinitely because the pedals require virtually no skill to operate.

I've read your reviews, Roadrunner. I think you agree with me. You've talked about Sprint speed versus average speed over an hour. Hobie's excel in the high average speed in your tests, but their sprint speed is somewhat limited (although still VERY good)

It's not that Hobie's are slow. In fact, it was their speed that first attracted me to them. But Rotomolded hulls are heavy, and the Mirage Drive line of kayaks that we can choose from today are all limited in their top speed by the hull design. For pure top speed, the hull would be shaped differently, but as with any kayak, there is a balance of performance, stability, and other factors that are weighed into the design equation.

When you factor in stability alone, there is nothing that is as stable as the Mirage Drive line of boats that can even come close to the speed. They're the best kayaks on the water, in my opinion. But they're not the fastest when it comes to top speed.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:00 pm 
Offline
Hobie Approved Guru

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 2406
Location: Escondido
Augaug, I always like what you say. You have a well considered point of view and a good way of expressing it. I was just looking for some clarification. Thanks! 8)

PS It's a good thing you're not on the local race committee -- Hobie's would have some serious competition vying against those sea kayaks! :lol:

BTW, this year's Bay 2 Bay race is July 7. Here are the details for anyone interested in this fun event:
http://www.peninsula.ymca.org/special-e ... gatta.html


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:22 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:21 am
Posts: 62
Location: Portland, Oregon
To the original post - the Oasis is able to handle heavy current, but that may be not exactly translate to a good boat for your river. We regularly use our Oasis in the Columbia and the Willamette rivers, which are large rivers, and I have been out during high water periods with very heavy currents.

What gives me pause for your application is that you mentioned it being hard to wade. I don't think Hobies make particularly good shallow water kayaks. The Mirage drive takes a foot or more of depth to operate - and maybe 18" for Turbo fins. And I can assure you that Turbo fins will get bent if you hit something at speed. (Regular fins or ST fins are more durable.) Turbos can be repaired easy enough, but it's not something you want to do often.

If you will be shallow a lot, you might want to go with a paddle yak. On the other hand, if you are in deeper water most of the time, the Mirage drive will allow you to go places other human powered craft cannot, because of the power you can generate.

_________________
2011 Oasis (papaya)
2012 Revo (dune)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group