Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:15 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:13 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2045
Location: High Point, NC
Please define "many" with some sort of number. What may seem like "many" may in fact be "few" against the total number of MD units in use worldwide.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:40 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:47 pm
Posts: 46
the_tall_man wrote:
I'm 6'7". The other guy I witnessed this happening to is 6'7" as well. Height may have something to do with it, but I doubt it. These pedals need to be bulletproof. They are breaking when they are cranked hard. And when you're cranking hard you need to get somewhere fast. For example, trying to punch thru surf, or trying to get back to the launch when T-storm clouds appear out of nowhere. They are failing at just the point I need them most, and therefore making a potentially dangerous situation even more dangerous. And these are situations kayak fishers often find themselves in. I certainly won't accept that I am mis-using them.

If you take full strides of the mirage drive, to the extent that you apply preassure beyond its maximum range of motion, then you are putting excessive stress on the drive and that would cause the hollow arms to fail. Otherwise, water resistance alone wouldn't be the cause of failure.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:48 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 1272
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
One thing I know about Hobie is they have the best continuing improvement program on their products that I have ever seen. I also know they monitor these forums and pay attention to details very well. I've been using the mirage drives since 2007 and have never had a serious failure with any of my dozen or so mirage units I have owned. I'm a pretty heavy user and typically pedal my TI at least 15 miles per week all year round (it's my exercise program), some weeks like when we are down at our key west house, I'll go out every day if I can when there.
Just in my experience pretty much every suggestion I have made regarding product improvements or potential problems have mysteriously appeared on their new products or are corrected usually within a year or so from when I posted them. I assume it takes Hobie about that long to re-design, fully test, then re-tool for production. Often times this requires new molds and tooling which are typically extremely expensive (I'm in that business). I have a sneaking suspicion that this mirage shaft problem will just quietly go away as Hobie works out the details with their suppliers, all behind the scenes and transparent to the rest of us.

Tom has a good point, and he has mentioned this before, that we mostly only read about the problems that people have, and very seldom about successes. I follow this forum and only recall reading about mirage shaft failures being reported, as maybe 10 that I have read about since 2007. I'm sure there have been more, and since everything Hobie is covered by their wonderful warranty program, chances are every one of those bad shafts were replaced promptly, and the customers are now very happy. Hobie is a major manufacturer of kayaks worldwide and I wouldn't be suprised if they are selling well over 100,000 mirage drives per year, that times 7 years is almost 3/4 of a million units out there with 10 failures (that we know about) since 2007. Any company prays for a failure rate that low, even with that I can pretty much guarantee we will see the shaft breaking problem going away quietly very quickly as Hobie hones their manufacturing process to cover that .0001 percent of users with fishermans feet ( Hobie calls it fishermans feet because when reeling in their fish they often brace their feet on the pedals with the pedals in the center (I have caught myself doing that) this puts excess stress on the mirage drive shafts, thus their term fishermans feet).

When out we all have to be prepared for failure, and have backups for everything including the mirage drive (ie.. paddle on board always).

Just 3 days ago I had a catastrophic failure while out at sea 10 miles from launch. I ran into a 300 ft wad of heavy test fishing line (that green really strong stuff) floating out in the gulf. I was flying along minding my own business when all of a sudden the line got caught up in all the parts of my boat, then started winding onto the propeller on my motor, the line was all over the boat and as it pulled tighter (winding up on the motor it tore one of my hydrofoils off, bent the fin shaft on my mirage drive, broke the rudder pin, and tore the propeller completely off the boat (wrecking the lower unit, and losing the prop). It took me over an hour to untangle and cut the line from everything, straighten the mirage drive shaft, replace the rudder pin, remove my foils, then sail and pedal the old fashion way the ten miles back from the open ocean in almost no wind (maybe 4-5 mph winds at best). So it's important to have backups of everything ( I always carry an extra mirage drive, and paddles) because you never know what's going to happen out there. My planned under an hour trip turned into a 6-7 hour painful and expensive ordeal, but hey I still had fun out there. I'll be out of commission for about 2-3 weeks as I repair everything though. I keep a spare prop on board (more redundancy) but the lower unit was damaged so I couldn't run the engine.
One of the rear foils was destroyed, now I have to make a new one, plus wait 2 weeks to get the motor repaired.
Image
Bob


Last edited by fusioneng on Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:51 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:48 pm
Posts: 53
Location: Missoula, Montana
fishwhisperer619 wrote:
If you take full strides of the mirage drive, to the extent that you apply preassure beyond its maximum range of motion, then you are putting excessive stress on the drive and that would cause the hollow arms to fail. Otherwise, water resistance alone wouldn't be the cause of failure.

People using Mirage Drives can be expected to occasionally push the pedals to the end of their range of motion. Tall people may do it when the pedal arms are set at 7, and short people may do it when the pedal arms are set at 2. Because pushing the pedals to the end of their range of motion is common and expected, the pedal arms should be designed to handle it. Whatever stress is created by pushing the pedals to the end of their range of motion should not be regarded as excessive stress.

fusioneng wrote:
I can pretty much guarantee we will see the shaft breaking problem going away quietly very quickly as Hobie hones their manufacturing process to cover that .0001 percent of users with fishermans feet ( Hobie calls it fishermans feet because when reeling in their fish they often brace their feet on the pedals with the pedals in the center (I have caught myself doing that) this puts excess stress on the mirage drive shafts, thus their term fishermans feet).

If some percentage of kayakers often brace their feet on the pedals with the pedals in the center while reeling in fish, that is a predictable stress, and should not be regarded as an excess stress. The pedal shafts should be designed to handle that stress.

If you told bicyclists that if they went over hard bumps on a particular bicycle, the bumps would place "excessive stress" on the pedals and crank set, and they might break, nobody would buy that particular bicycle. When I hear that the pedal shafts on Mirage Drives are breaking when kayakers are making normal and predictable use of the drives, that greatly reduces my confidence in the Mirage Drive, and indicates that the design of the pedal shafts is inadequate and defective.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:05 am 
Offline
Hobie Approved Guru

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 2394
Location: Escondido
It's really pretty unusual to conclude that a part that has been successfully used for several years with tens of thousands of problem free units in service to be considered a poor design. The Mirage Drive is built to be used as a propulsion unit, and in that capacity it rarely has any crank arm failures -- much more likely for a mast to break over the course of time and distance due to bending and flexing (but also uncommon). If the Drive is used as a footrest however, as frequently happens (especially with fishermen), it's much easier to overstress the crank arms and other parts as well. This is how they usually break. Additionally, if one breaks, the other is also at a risk of premature failure. IMO, this is not a design flaw, nor is it appropriate to add the extra expense and weight to all Mirage Drives to build them for this purpose.

Fortunately, for those feel that they want or need the extra strength, they can purchase the solid billet crank arms and supply their own custom bicycle pedals. Yes, they are heavier and more costly, but the footrest crowd will crack their drivewell before breaking one.

This gets back to the idea that we are responsible to equip our boats appropriately for the purpose and risk we assume and unanticipated events that may pop up at the most unfortunate times. Indeed, that may include carrying a spare Drive, bilge pump, lights, flares, etc. If you're not confident you're boat is safe for the task at hand, don't do it.

I might also mention that the only crank arm that I "broke" was actually a crack due to pedal torque from a defective extrusion several years ago. Since then I have been in several races, had hundreds (if not thousands) of sprints riding boat wakes and broken or worn out a number of parts, but so far, no crank arms -- am probably a much heavier user than most here! 8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:32 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 1272
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
pmmpete:
We often take new people out on our TI, and I typically instruct them on how to use the mirage drive before we ever leave the shore (yes they have to work for their ride LOL). I explain that if you hit something not to continue trying to pedal (this is almost always when the damage occurs). I also explain to them that it's not necessary to pedal the entire stroke, shorter pedal strokes are actually just as efficient, and no where near as tiring, also way less annoying to me hearing that slap slap against the hull (one of my pet peeves).
Hope this helps
Bob


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:33 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:47 pm
Posts: 46
pmmpete wrote:
fishwhisperer619 wrote:
If you take full strides of the mirage drive, to the extent that you apply preassure beyond its maximum range of motion, then you are putting excessive stress on the drive and that would cause the hollow arms to fail. Otherwise, water resistance alone wouldn't be the cause of failure.

People using Mirage Drives can be expected to occasionally push the pedals to the end of their range of motion. Tall people may do it when the pedal arms are set at 7, and short people may do it when the pedal arms are set at 2. Because pushing the pedals to the end of their range of motion is common and expected, the pedal arms should be designed to handle it. Whatever stress is created by pushing the pedals to the end of their range of motion should not be regarded as excessive stress.

fusioneng wrote:
I can pretty much guarantee we will see the shaft breaking problem going away quietly very quickly as Hobie hones their manufacturing process to cover that .0001 percent of users with fishermans feet ( Hobie calls it fishermans feet because when reeling in their fish they often brace their feet on the pedals with the pedals in the center (I have caught myself doing that) this puts excess stress on the mirage drive shafts, thus their term fishermans feet).

If some percentage of kayakers often brace their feet on the pedals with the pedals in the center while reeling in fish, that is a predictable stress, and should not be regarded as an excess stress. The pedal shafts should be designed to handle that stress.

If you told bicyclists that if they went over hard bumps on a particular bicycle, the bumps would place "excessive stress" on the pedals and crank set, and they might break, nobody would buy that particular bicycle. When I hear that the pedal shafts on Mirage Drives are breaking when kayakers are making normal and predictable use of the drives, that greatly reduces my confidence in the Mirage Drive, and indicates that the design of the pedal shafts is inadequate and defective.


Pmmpete
If you look at the dynamics of the mirage drive, the inch or so of area the fins move to "slap the deck" are wasted energy by the user. The only time it is recommended to even operate at that range is in very shallow areas where there is no choice. Every Hobie owner and worker I have spoke to has recommended that the range of motion stay between 75-80% of full range to get the most out of the drive.
Also, fishermans feet is forseeable, but its not what the mirage drives are meant for. Its very similar to the diawa baitcast reel that had the flipping bar on it, people would use it to retrieve their fish and it would break. Its just plastic, its not meant for reeling a fish in, just picking up slack on a plastic worm or creature etc. Mirage drive is the same way. Not meant for the user to brace with, it was meant for propulsion.
And I didn't say that its bad to push it to the end of range of motion in my first post, I said pushing it past the range of motion. Such as an elbow over extending, not meant to do that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:08 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:12 pm
Posts: 179
Location: Columbia, MD
I'm a little on the fence on this issue. Coming from a design/engineering/construction background I can appreciate the efforts to make the shafts lighter, more efficient & more economical. I also appreciate that it's not possible to predict how every user will use the device, in both intended and unintended/unexpected ways.

However, three things don't sit well with me:

First, the failure rate of the old solid shafts was essentially zero, at least I don't recall reports of any. I'd hazard a guess that the "publicly reported" failures of the new hollow shafts are 10% to 25% of total failures - i.e these are the squeaky wheels. Even if the failure rate of the hollow shafts occurs in only a small fraction of TOTAL mirage drive units, it's still MUCH higher than the failure rate of the old solid shafts. Therefore, acknowledging the other benefits, the new design simply fails more often than the old one. It represents a decrease in reliability to the consumer.

Second, the phenomenon of "fisherman's feet" is common enough that (apparently) Hobie came up with a name for it. Hobie very aggressively markets its kayaks to fishermen, and the Mirage Drive, to my eyes, is the centerpiece of that marketing strategy. If "fisherman's feet" is even suspected of causing failures, then the drive needs to be redesigned to accommodate the way it is used. Bracing on the pedals makes perfect sense while fighting a fish. If you use the straps you may not really have a choice. Asking anglers to take their feet off the pedals while fighting fish is silly.

Third, don't confuse accidental breakage with failure. To me, carrying a spare mirage drive is about the same as carrying a spare motor for my car. Too extreme an example? Okay, how many bicyclists carry spare pedal shafts, let alone complete drive assemblies? In my kayak I'm as concerned with weight as any bicyclist. If you have a larger boat like an AI with larger space and weight capacity, then carrying a spare drive may make sense. The drive should be reliable enough that a spare is not needed to provide peace of mind against failure. Accidents do happen on the water & drives do get broken, but accidental breakage and failure are two separate things.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:12 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:47 pm
Posts: 46
Gas Yakker wrote:
I'm a little on the fence on this issue. Coming from a design/engineering/construction background I can appreciate the efforts to make the shafts lighter, more efficient & more economical. I also appreciate that it's not possible to predict how every user will use the device, in both intended and unintended/unexpected ways.

However, three things don't sit well with me:

First, the failure rate of the old solid shafts was essentially zero, at least I don't recall reports of any. I'd hazard a guess that the "publicly reported" failures of the new hollow shafts are 10% to 25% of total failures - i.e these are the squeaky wheels. Even if the failure rate of the hollow shafts occurs in only a small fraction of TOTAL mirage drive units, it's still MUCH higher than the failure rate of the old solid shafts. Therefore, acknowledging the other benefits, the new design simply fails more often than the old one. It represents a decrease in reliability to the consumer.

Second, the phenomenon of "fisherman's feet" is common enough that (apparently) Hobie came up with a name for it. Hobie very aggressively markets its kayaks to fishermen, and the Mirage Drive, to my eyes, is the centerpiece of that marketing strategy. If "fisherman's feet" is even suspected of causing failures, then the drive needs to be redesigned to accommodate the way it is used. Bracing on the pedals makes perfect sense while fighting a fish. If you use the straps you may not really have a choice. Asking anglers to take their feet off the pedals while fighting fish is silly.

Third, don't confuse accidental breakage with failure. To me, carrying a spare mirage drive is about the same as carrying a spare motor for my car. Too extreme an example? Okay, how many bicyclists carry spare pedal shafts, let alone complete drive assemblies? In my kayak I'm as concerned with weight as any bicyclist. If you have a larger boat like an AI with larger space and weight capacity, then carrying a spare drive may make sense. The drive should be reliable enough that a spare is not needed to provide peace of mind against failure. Accidents do happen on the water & drives do get broken, but accidental breakage and failure are two separate things.


Well said. Touche :thumbsup:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:57 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:51 pm
Posts: 8
Location: Mascoutah Illinois
I like the point first made by our dutch friend. The resistance against the water is not likely to break the shaft as it is in the picture, i wonder if the users experiencing these breaks are slapping the fins against the hull at the end of each stroke and still pressing forcibly . This would be a point greatly increased stress on the shaft (and all parts involved). and as also stated by another poster it will result in wasted energy. if we are set at the drives full range and unable to restrict ourselves from "overstroking" and or pressing with both feet in the same direction. perhaps try moving the seat back a bit???


Can a hobie tech tell us what type of aluminum the shafts are and are they drawn or extruded? I recently worked on a valve handle with a similar breaking issue . we ended up machining the handles from plate stock,a bit costly but considerably stronger w/o increasing weight too much. the hole through the middle of this part was function not weight though.

Or one diy fix , if we could have some tight fitting plugs pressed into the shaft at each through hole extending 1-2" from the hole the force that would normally be applied to the weakened hole will now be applied to a section of whole tubing. 2024-T351 is what i might use. beware of dissimilar metals / oxidation .

I hope I never Have this issue. I wont alter the shafts unless I do. I personally enjoy fixing/upgrading my stuff.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:52 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:25 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Jaco, Costa Rica
Well, I'm 5'11" 170lbs. I broke my new pedal shaft exactly where every one was mentioning in 1 1/2 months while pedaling. I am very careful with my pedals, storage etc. When I'm into the fight with a fish, I sit side saddle in the AI for the camera. I don't know how or where I'm putting added stress on the pedals that I could have weakened it. I do like, or I should say did, like to use quick hard short bursts while trolling, looking for the fish to hit on the slow down. That's how they snapped, while doing this motion but who knows where I could have weakened it before hand. Looking at the material and the amount of material drilled out for the adjustment peg, I'm surprised I haven't snapped one before. I really think these arms need a new material that is structurally more solid in this weak area. I may have to look into those heavier constructed arms. I do have very strong legs.

_________________
Mark
Adventure Island- 2014
Revolution 13- 2013


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:50 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 am
Posts: 1272
Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Even if Hobie eventually redesigns the pedals on some future version. I can't imagine the new pedal costing less than $60 bucks. If course you can make up new pedals yourselves from 3/4 sq solid aluminum as well.
I already described an instant fix that only costs a couple bucks and only takes 5 minutes of your time. Basically pop the cap off the top of the shaft. Stuff a paper towel down into the opening at the top and push it down about a inch below the cross pin. Now put a little grease on the cross pin to prevent the epoxy from sticking to it. Now mix up either some 5 minute epoxy or polyester resin (the kind they use for fiberglass) and pour it into the tube about 2 inches deep or a inch above the cross hole. Quick and simple to do. If you want a little more strength just to make you feel better, before pouring the epoxy just drop two 3/32 drill bits into the hole (one on each side of the pin) before pouring the epoxy in. The tensile strength of drill bits is thru the roof, and buried in the epoxy around all the fluting, they are not going anywhere. Just doing this alone will increase the failure point to in excess of 300 lbs, actually the shaft itself would bend before the joint breaks.
Like I said it will likely take Hobie over a year to implement any design change, and that would only be on future sales, eventually they may offer the improved pedal shafts as a replacement part number, but I can assure you it will not be cheap.
The failure rate is so low that Hobie may elect not to make any changes to the design, and just replace the ten or so failed pedals a year as needed if still under warranty ( that's what I would do).
We can continue bitching at each other till the cows come home and it won't solve anything. I'm a heavy peddler myself with thousands of pedaling miles on a dozen or so mirage drives and have never had a failure. My opinion is if you want a little extra assurance just spend 5 minutes and do the fix I outlined, or go buy the solid pedal shaft which is still available and replace your hollow pedal shaft. I don't plan to do anything myself since I have never had a problem, and don't expect to ever have a problem.
One other thought is there may me a batch of sub-standard pedals (made from not to spec aluminum) out there, that would explain the sudden increase in failures (just a thought).
Bob


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:41 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:51 pm
Posts: 8
Location: Mascoutah Illinois
fusioneng wrote:
Even if Hobie eventually redesigns the pedals on some future version. I can't imagine the new pedal costing less than $60 bucks. If course you can make up new pedals yourselves from 3/4 sq solid aluminum as well.
I already described an instant fix that only costs a couple bucks and only takes 5 minutes of your time. Basically pop the cap off the top of the shaft. Stuff a paper towel down into the opening at the top and push it down about a inch below the cross pin. Now put a little grease on the cross pin to prevent the epoxy from sticking to it. Now mix up either some 5 minute epoxy or polyester resin (the kind they use for fiberglass) and pour it into the tube about 2 inches deep or a inch above the cross hole. Quick and simple to do. If you want a little more strength just to make you feel better, before pouring the epoxy just drop two 3/32 drill bits into the hole (one on each side of the pin) before pouring the epoxy in. The tensile strength of drill bits is thru the roof, and buried in the epoxy around all the fluting, they are not going anywhere. Just doing this alone will increase the failure point to in excess of 300 lbs, actually the shaft itself would bend before the joint breaks.
Like I said it will likely take Hobie over a year to implement any design change, and that would only be on future sales, eventually they may offer the improved pedal shafts as a replacement part number, but I can assure you it will not be cheap.
The failure rate is so low that Hobie may elect not to make any changes to the design, and just replace the ten or so failed pedals a year as needed if still under warranty ( that's what I would do).
We can continue bitching at each other till the cows come home and it won't solve anything. I'm a heavy peddler myself with thousands of pedaling miles on a dozen or so mirage drives and have never had a failure. My opinion is if you want a little extra assurance just spend 5 minutes and do the fix I outlined, or go buy the solid pedal shaft which is still available and replace your hollow pedal shaft. I don't plan to do anything myself since I have never had a problem, and don't expect to ever have a problem.
One other thought is there may me a batch of sub-standard pedals (made from not to spec aluminum) out there, that would explain the sudden increase in failures (just a thought).
Bob


a2 (drill rod) + aluminum = dissimilar metals I guarantee structure failure there. especially if the drive is used in salt water. the aluminum will quickly become brittle from the accelerated oxidation .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:03 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:12 pm
Posts: 179
Location: Columbia, MD
Completely sleeve the drill bits with heatshrink tubing prior to imbeding in resin. Isolates the Fe from the Al = no galvanic action.

Plan B: mill new crank arms from 316 stainless bar. Voila! Your drive now weighs 50lbs but will survive the apocalypse! :)


Last edited by Gas Yakker on Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:46 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:25 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Jaco, Costa Rica
Gas Yakker wrote:
Plan B: mill new crank arms from 312 stainless bar. Voila! Your drive now weighs 50lbs but will survive the apocalypse! :)


Better the extra weight and no failure. After my experience of failure and seeing how wimpy that material looked at the point of failure, I'm putting in a request for the solid pedal shaft as replacement. I'm probably going to have to figure out how to carry an extra set of pedals when going out front on my 15 miles plus trips fishing. If the wind dies it's no fun working my way back to shore with pedals but doable, all the more, with a paddle on the AI, forget it, break out the night light and wait for the wind. Another option is the Honda 2.3 outboard motor, it's sounding better every minute as an extra insurance with or without pedals. Instead of carrying all kinds of tools/extra pedals, might as well have an outboard. Just another option for those hard days out pushing the limits. Would be a nice relief of the mind to have that motor ready to do the job so I could push it even further.

_________________
Mark
Adventure Island- 2014
Revolution 13- 2013


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group