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 Post subject: Trolling Motor on Rudder
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:21 pm 
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I sent Hobie this note and 'they' suggested i contact this forum.
****
I support our local Heroes on the Water chapter (HOW) heroesonthewater.org and also own an Oasis.. 

I am looking to modify my Oasis so that more of our disabled soldiers can come out to our supported Kayak Fishing events.

Question:

I know you have the Hobie eVolve but it doesn't meet our needs.  I am looking to install a Trolling Motor head onto the Rudder. 

Do you have any research with this type of installation? 
Do you feel the mounting location can support a small, 30# thrust, Motor?
will the steering mechanism support the 'torque'?

Any information that you can provide would be very appreciated.
*****
Your thoughts???
Steve


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:17 am 
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I'm surprised we would send you to the forums for a question "if the rudder can handle this"... the answer would be "not a good idea". Trolling motors are too heavy and excessive thrust could damage it I'd think.

Now, for other mounting ideas... the forums are full of them. There are many posts in the forums that describe similar ideas to what you are looking for.

Search "Trolling Motor": http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/search.php?keywords=Trolling+Motor&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:06 am 
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Location: EL CAJON, CA
Go to You tube and type in "hobie trolling motor mount"
Tom Kirkman has designed the simplest mounting system
for a hobie trolling motor that is great and easy to assemble.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:48 pm 
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Sundancer:
The simplest setup in my opinion would be to have volenteers make up some of the motor mounts recommended by Beardedguy (Tom Kirkman's PVC tube system). They are extremely simple and can be made in a few minutes and would only cost a couple dollars in PVC pipe. Of course they will need to be slightly different for each boat type ( ie... Oasis, revolution, etc). Once the pipe mount is made it wii work with most small inexpensive trolling motors like the Sevler Water snake, or Minnkota.
Mounting the battery into a crate that just straps down to the rear deck seems to be the most popular. The whole system would be modular, and could be fitted onto any Hobie in a couple minutes. No modifications are required to any boats, and if the boats are loaners, the motor system shouldn't hurt the boat in any way. I'm sure if you contact the manufacturers they will donate a few motors for a good cause. Others on the forum can give very good design and construction guidance and feedback as to what to get how to rig it ,etc if you open up a topic on the forum asking for help.

Trying to mount a trolling motor to the twist and stow rudder would be a nightmare idea ( I'm a design engineer).
As an alternate option I have seen several people make a simple plug to go into the mirage drive pocket in the hull, then mount a Sevler water snake motor into the place where the foot pedals would normally go. Again very simple to make by one of your volenteers and no changes to the boat are required. So if you had a few of these systems they could be used on any Hobie mirage boat, would only take a couple minutes to drop in and they are off.
If it were me I would build both types, this gives you some versatility to accommodate different types of handy caps.
Hope this help you
( former Marine) Bob


Last edited by fusioneng on Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:04 am 
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I have the evolve mounted on my revo amd have to say i am most impressed with it.

What are the reasons that the evolve would not meet your needs as it clearly the best, and possibly only, tool for a rudder mounted motor.

Boy it goes quickly!

Cc

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:20 am 
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Chopcat :
Of course an evolve system would be the most effective and trouble free system, I regret not mentioning that in my response. I'm pretty sure it could be mounted in a modular fashion so no modifications are needed to the loaner boats. Since the small 5 lb battery's are waterproof and they float, they could just be bungled to the rear deck directly ( no crate needed). The unit can either run in the mirage drive pocket or on the rudder, either setup can be configured in just a few minutes.
All in the complete system including the battery is only around 15 lbs. And the battery will last longer than a 75 lb huge lead battery.
However it's only a small thing for a company like Sevler or Minnkota to donate 3 or 4 $100 dollar motors and have a few volenteers rig them up ( for free ), It would be another realm entirely for a company to donate 3 or 4 $2000 dollar systems.
I don't want to speak for these guys at all, I am just kind of second guessing their reasoning for wanting what they were discribing they wanted and why, and tried to come up with a cheap inexpensive alternatives that could work for their needs ( not equal to an evolve system, just a po mans alternatives ( discribing myself)).
Hey I'm pretty sure most of the guys on this forum would donate the use of our boats to a few days if ever asked for something like this if there were events in our home towns. Including evolve systems, unfortunately, though the Evolve systems are the best out there I don't know anyone in our area who owns one, and personally I will never be able to afford one, that's the reality.
Personally if it were me I would be approaching my local Hobie dealer, and them working with Hobie corporate actually put on and totally sponsor these events. The press coverage would be huge, and they could incorporate into their weekly TV series, instead of just fishing crap ( obviously I don' fish lol)
I don't speak for Hobie, but like most of us on this forum would gladly donate a little time and possibly my boat if something like this was going on in my local area.
Civic events like this would be a perfect fit for groups like the local Hobie island clubs, they are all looking for stuff to do.
If it were me I would setup a traveling road show called something like "Hero appreciation weekend" that goes from town to town nationwide, all the equipment would be shipped to that local dealer for the week (evolve systems mostly), then forwarded to the next Hobie club for the following weekend. If organized properly this would be huge for a company like Hobie, with really good press.
I'm not trying to guilt Hobie into doing anything, I'm just thinking out loud trying to figure out some way to help our heros.
Another point I would like to make is all the injuries suffered are not necessarily physical, my son after serving tours in Afganistan suffered from PTSD for quite a while, and any helping hand we can offer makes a difference.
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:25 am 
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sundancer wrote:
I support our local Heroes on the Water chapter (HOW) heroesonthewater.org and also own an Oasis..

I am looking to modify my Oasis so that more of our disabled soldiers can come out to our supported Kayak Fishing events.
In line with fusioneng's suggestions, here's a small gallery of ideas that have shown up locally over the years.

First cut:
Image

Image

Image

Drop in (note frame):
Image

Expedient:
Image

fusioneng wrote:
Personally if it were me I would be approaching my local Hobie dealer, and them working with Hobie corporate actually put on and totally sponsor these events. The press coverage would be huge....
Bob, living near the Hobie plant, I've noticed that Hobie does quite a bit to give back to the community, mostly through it's dealer network, but also directly in some cases (fishing events, waterway clean-ups, etc.). It's not unusual to see many of the company staff spending part of their weekends volunteering with Hobie equipment in local events -- great and dedicated bunch, based on the ones I've run across BTW. Hobie evidently chooses to avoid publicity for their work -- that sort of thing tends to spawn a lot of unwanted solicitation.

I think you're absolutely right -- sundancer's best option might be to see if his local dealer would be willing to get involved. Semper Fi 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:59 am 
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sundancer :
Another suggestion would be to post a request in the Hobie fishing part of the forum with a 'good title'. The IFA and the Hobie Fishing team is a huge well organized group that does events and tournaments all over the country, and also get the majority of the air time on the Hobie TV series. They are a great bunch and may be willing to add a venue for something like this to their tour. I'm not involved with them since I don't fish, but am very impressed with them.
just a suggestion
Bob


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:54 pm 
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Gentlemen,

Thank you for all your input. I took a look at Tom's bracket and will seriously consider it.

I rigged a trolling motor and 110 Ah LA battery and it worked very well. The only real issue is the battery, the bugger is ~80#‘s. The bracket i made is also 'butt' ugly. I replicated the cassette idea but the Minkotta seems a little larger than the Watersnake and it takes up valuable 'draft'.

The issue with the Evolve is cost. I will be doing this on my own. The local HOW group has many Yak's and i believe most are Ocean's.

Wild River Outfitters (Hobie) has always supported HOW and is a great resource.

I will continue my research though, and might even take a leap of faith and still consider the rudder issue. If not connecting to the rudder but maybe using the rudder mount directly..

Please keep throwing out ideas..

Again, thanks
Steve


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:28 pm 
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sundancer wrote:
I will continue my research though, and might even take a leap of faith and still consider the rudder issue. If not connecting to the rudder but maybe using the rudder mount directly..
According to this article, the evolve puts out about 30# thrust, so presumably the rudder mount could handle this much as long as the prop stays relatively close to the mounts (less torque leverage against the mounts). http://www.louisianasportsman.com/details.php?id=2354 Keep in mind that if this damages your Oasis, it could be a costly non-warranty issue.

Here are a couple of other things to consider. The evolve has some important safety features:
-- If the pilot falls out of the boat, the motor shuts off, so the boat doesn't run away or cause lacerations.
-- if there is a capsize, the motor also shuts off.
-- the motor shuts down if it strikes an underwater object, restarts when clear.
However you rig a motor, I think these folks should have that kind of protection.

A rudder mount motor doesn't need a rudder as long as it's running, but definitely does need an attached rudder when not running (dead battery, malfunction, etc). The evolve rudder mount is adequate, but nowhere as good as the standard rudder for non-motorized running -- I would say that would be your minimum size requirement.

Putting the rudder mount motor in reverse tends to kick the motor out of the water. Locking your rudder down prevents that, but this is not a strong constraint. The evolve has a thrust limitation in reverse (I believe about 1/2 forward thrust)). You want to make sure any other rudder mount motor has a similar limiter.

These are some of the hurdles you need to consider if you still want to pursue a "custom" rudder mount. IMO, life would be much simpler if you could avoid it.

Here's another possibility. If your dealer had a "demonstrator" evolve and would be willing to loan it to you for these occasions, you can rig the system above the deck and avoid any holes in your boat (Velcro tape). Or even with holes, there are custom caps available to seal them with the system removed. 8)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:32 pm 
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I am assuming with any discussion of a rudder mount, that you are thinking about mounting the prop head to the Twist N Stow unit. If you were thinking otherwise (about a fixed mount or a standard shaft mount), I think it would render the boat unsafe in turns (turning moment being too far under the boat (away from the roll axis). Without a kick up feature, it could easily rip your rudder mount off if it hit a solid underwater object or hung up on a launch ramp. Finally, the leveraged thrust load from a lower prop would far exceed the rudder mount strength without additional bracing. Remember that any stern mount is inaccessible from the cockpit while underway.

IMO, any kind of shaft mount would need to be attached somewhere on the hull besides the rudder.

This is probably a dumb question, but if you're taking these guys out in your tandem, is there some reason you can't pedal them to the fishing area? The Oasis still scoots along nicely on one Drive with a well plug and a passenger. A couple of friends do this regularly with their wives. 8)
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:09 am 
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Roadrunner:
Hey my wife does that to me all the time. She always likes to ride in the back, I suspect but can't prove that she fake pedals ( says she is pedaling when she is not). That's kind of a running joke around our house, but to be honest, it doesn't bother me at all, I don't mind doing it and enjoy the company.
You are correct though even with one peddler with turbo fins the oasis should be able to out perform any current electric trolling motor as far as average speed and duration goes. When we had our oasis and revo we would often pedal ten hours then go do it again the next day, with average speed of around 2-4 mph. With anything except the evolve even with an 80 lb battery you are talking around a 5-10 mile range then the battery is dead. With mirage drives your range is limitless. An added benefit of the mirage drive for fishing and trolling is it is totally silent and doesn't scare the fish at all like any propeller does. I have on many occasions had giant fish ( and dolphins) swim up to the boat and check me out.
We do have a 20 lb gas motor and alway carry at least 50 miles of gas on board. We always have the motor on board but to be honest in the last 3 years on our TI we have only used 6 gallons of fuel in well over 3000 miles. We find the mirage drives to be more than adaquate, and only use the motor in emergencies.
So I think what both roadrunner and I are alluding to is, even with only one active person on the boat, you oasis should outdistance any recreational paddle yak with much less effort, and out perform and out distance any electric system out there currently with the exception of the evolve ( thou I don't own one, everyone reports that it is the best out there, and weighing in at only 15 lbs ( including battery) it is). You may already have every thing you need ( with you as the motor).
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:30 pm 
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http://bassyaks.com/products/kits-avail ... /dsc00452/

This is what i was thinking.....

Steve


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:28 pm 
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here's the Bassyaks ProAngler link http://bassyaks.com/products/kits-avail ... syak-kits/


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:15 am 
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I have been involved in both the Wounded Warriors and HOW programs. Not certain the distance you are going when taking the Warriors out for a day on the water, but here is a solution that we have used to get them out there.

With the Mirage Drive, it is very easy and doable to simply have the warrior to pull up beside your Mirage Drive equipped kayak and simply hold onto the side of each others kayak. The Mirage Drive kayak will quickly and effortlessly move both kayaks. Once you have reached your destination, they can paddle on their own. Having done this numerous times, I can attest to how easily this works.

Don't know why you would wish to screw around with a trolling motor/battery/etc when this works just as well :mrgreen:


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