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 Post subject: Revo 11 wish list
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:29 am 
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Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:23 pm
Posts: 10
Wish list:

    *A much simpler rudder system that simply works.
    *An option for a much larger steering handle than this tiny, RSI provoking one. A handle that goes sideways, so that it is possible to steer the boat by moving your hand bakc and forth, while resing it on the boat.
    *A more sturdy construction of the way the steering handle is fixed to the kayak.
    *A solution to the cockpit puddle problem, maybe by supplying self-draining scuppers.

The Revo 11 I own for more than a year now is my third Hobie Mirage kayak.
The first one, a Sport. I bought it about 7 years ago and it is located at our summer house. It still is great. The one problem, the tiny steering handle, which causes RSI sympoms when I was kayaking, was solved by mounting a wooden door knob on it.

Because our house borders a lake and I liked kayaking a lot, I bought a second one, a Revo 13. I had it for about 5 years, until I traded it in for a Revo 11, which I bought because it is shorter and lighter. It had two problems. I could only reach the steering handle by bending forward. Putting the seat in the front position was not an option because the fins would clatter agains the hull very annoyingly. I solved the problem by bending a piece of electricity tube and put bicycle foam around it and mount that on the steering handle. It resulted in very relaxed steering, perfect. The other problem was the "new" twist and stow rudder, which I always put down by hand, but if need arose, it was still possible to get it up or down from the cockpit after a few tries.

Enter the Revo 11.
Yes, it is short and it maneuvers nicely.

But then the steering handle came off, while I was in the middle of a river close to my home, where there can be some rather large freight vessels who have no time or room to steer around a tiny kayak. I managed to keep control over the rudder by pressing the handle with force on the pin. It took me quite a while to get the handle fixed, because it is difficult to find inch-measure screwdrivers in my part of the world (the Netherlands). The way it is fixed to the kayak seems rather weak, with one screw which can easily get loose.

The knob you can mount on the steering handle is nice, but by far not as nice as the steering part I made on the old Revo. I would make a new one for the Revo 11 if I could find inch screws that fit in the hole of the steering handle.

Then, Holland can be pretty cold and in my Revo 11 I am having a problem that I never had in the other two: the water puddle you have to sit in after an encounter with a small speedboat or some such. Not nice I you are making a 5 hour tour! I saw some solutions in the forum, but keep in mind that I am a 68 year old woman and that my dear husband is a professor in mathematics with two left hands who does not like watersports.

But my worst and most dangerous problem is the newer twist and stow rudder which is even more complex than the two previous generations of the rudder system and therefore less reliable. Because there was no way the up and down handles would move my rudder, I used to twist the rudder by hand and click in in the notch. This summer there is an unusual amount of water lilies and weed in the water, therefore it happened to me that the rudder came out of the notch and I could only go around in circles. Even with the paddles it was really hard to reach the shore and click the rudder in its notch again.

A positive note to end: it is a lot easier to insert and take out the finns in my Revo 11.

I hope our cries are being heard, because it seems to me now that each new model has more disadvantages compared to the previous model. Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Revo 11 wish list
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:26 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2073
Location: High Point, NC
While I like the Twist and Stow concept and it really is nice to be able to get it all the way onto the stern deck, the plastic notch and hook system (for when you don't have the DOWN cord locked) isn't the greatest thing. I replace mine with two magnets, one on the grugeon and one on the rudder. There's enough pull that it'll easily kick up, but re-engage as soon as the rudder falls back down anywhere within about an inch of being all the way down. I don't have to reach around with the paddle and beat it back in place, nor raise and lower it again.


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 Post subject: Re: Revo 11 wish list
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:20 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 2407
Location: Escondido
I think all your problems are solvable. Lets take a look at the issues:
hillechien wrote:
Quote:
But my worst and most dangerous problem is the newer twist and stow rudder which is even more complex than the two previous generations of the rudder system and therefore less reliable. Because there was no way the up and down handles would move my rudder, I used to twist the rudder by hand and click in in the notch.Even with the paddles it was really hard to reach the shore and click the rudder in its notch again.
Your biggest problem is the easiest to fix. When the redder is down and locked, take the rudder down cord, pull it TIGHT and lock it in the "jamb" cleat highlighted here:
Image

Just remember to unlock it before you raise the rudder. If the rudder hits something hard it will still kick up without hurting anything.

If you're having trouble operating the pull strings, you might be having excess binding on your rotating mechanism. Take an adjustable wrench or pliers and loosen the nut highlighted here very slightly, so that the rudder pivots without binding but doesn't wobble in the housing.
Image
Then you should be able to operate the rudder with the handles in the cockpit.

Quote:
But then the steering handle came off....It took me quite a while to get the handle fixed, because it is difficult to find inch-measure screwdrivers in my part of the world (the Netherlands).
Hobie uses a liquid thread locker to keep those screws from backing out. Unfortunately they didn't realize this was a problem with the early boats. You can do the same. They use a product made by Henke called "Locktite Blue". Once you remove the screw, put a little on the end of the screw and this will glue it in place with enough force that it will not back out. You only need a small container. If your local hardware store doesn't carry it, you can get it on eBay. I use it on all my Hobie screws to make sure they stay in place.

To remove the screw, you need a very simple and inexpensive tool called an "Allen head" or "Hex" wrench. It looks like these:
Image

The size you need is 1/8 inch (this not a metric size), and you normally buy these by the set for 5 to 10 dollars US. Again, if you can't find them locally, try eBay.

By the way, if this handle shows any sign of looseness or wobbling, it will be coming off soon. Fix it immediately with the Loctite before it becomes a problem.

Quote:
The knob you can mount on the steering handle is nice, but by far not as nice as the steering part I made on the old Revo. I would make a new one for the Revo 11 if I could find inch screws that fit in the hole of the steering handle.
The attachment screw is 10/32 (S.A.E.) times whatever length you want; the knob end is 1/4 x 20. In both cases the first measurement is diameter and the second dimension is threads per inch. Here are some handles others have made:
Image
Image
Image

Quote:
Then, Holland can be pretty cold and in my Revo 11 I am having a problem that I never had in the other two: the water puddle you have to sit in after an encounter with a small speedboat or some such. Not nice I you are making a 5 hour tour!
With the Revo 11 this is always going to be a problem since you're sitting lower in the water. A lot of fishermen in the colder climates here use dry or waterproof pants.

Once you get all things fixed, you'll be practically a master mechanic! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Revo 11 wish list
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:18 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:20 pm
Posts: 273
Location: London UK
now maybe I am daft but I keep the rudder down when paddling with the paddle and with the mirage drive so the need for flipping it up and down is a rear occurrence. I have found that the boat tracks better paddling with the rudder down.

When you are landing you are out of the boat before the rudder is anywhere near the bottom.

PS: I have compounded the problem(?) by fitting the evolve on the rudder now - a truly worthwhile exercise. I towed a 6 person sail boat out into the harbor a couple of weeks ago with it.

So my point is why do you need to keep flipping the rudder up and down?

CC

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 Post subject: Re: Revo 11 wish list
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:37 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:23 pm
Posts: 10
To Chopcat: The little lake which borders my garden is already 1.5m deep at the jetty (or whatever you call this in English), therefore I just click the rudder into its notch before I slide the revo into the water. The problem however is when weed or waterplants get stuck between the finns or behind the rudder. The finns you can just pull out, so that is easy. The rudder is more or less moveable now, following the advice from roadrunner, but not enough to get the rudder out of the notch. Which still leaves me stuck in the weeds. The improvement so far is that I can get the rudder down again once it came loose from the notch and that will make my journey safer.

To roadrunner:
Thanks for the quick and elaborate reply! I never found where the cleat was until I saw your picture. But then, I did not need it because the rope did not work anyway. Although my rudder looks somewhat different, I managed to loosen a screw and get the ropes moving somewhat. But not enough to get the rudder out of the notch to get unstuck from the weeds. I am going to the dealer this afternoon to see if he can fix it.
The steering handle modification: this is cute, because the second foto you show is actually mine! I already spent hours to make a simililar thing for my Revo 11, but I did not succeed in doing that because the new handle already has a hole in it and I could find inch size nuts and bolts. So finally I mounted the special knob which improved streering, but that was when the handle started to fall off in the middle of the river. Yes I fixed it and put locktite in after I found the right tools in a specialized hardware store, but the knob provides far less grip than a longer handle would have. And I am concerned while kayaking because I think that the construction is rather weak, much weaker than in my previous 2 Hobie's. I am still wondering if not many more people have RSI like symptoms after kayaking for a few hours, having to steer with your fingertops.

The water puddle: Actually I think that your reply here is inappropriate. This is a design problem! Sitting in a puddle sucks! And I never had this problem in my Sport or Revo 13. I am using my Revo 11 for kayaking and making photo's, that should not involve getting wet, except maybe from rain. See also this post: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=46681&p=204528&hilit=cockpit+water+puddle#p204528
It would help if Hobie would provide self draining scuppers for the Revo 11. If I would be able to find the hollow balls talked about in the post, I will even attempt to make them. But I am not optimistic. Maybe I will buy a cheap pair of bicycle rain pants and cut of the legs, for use in winter.

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 Post subject: Re: Revo 11 wish list
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:57 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:46 pm
Posts: 2407
Location: Escondido
hillechien wrote:
The water puddle: Actually I think that your reply here is inappropriate. This is a design problem! Sitting in a puddle sucks! And I never had this problem in my Sport or Revo 13. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=46681&p=204528&hilit=cockpit+water+puddle#p204528
It would help if Hobie would provide self draining scuppers for the Revo 11. Maybe I will buy a cheap pair of bicycle rain pants and cut of the legs, for use in winter.
You may be right, but I think about it as a design choice rather than a design problem. Whenever you raise the seat, you raise the center of gravity. This reduces stability. If you want a fatter slower boat, then you have the Sport, or a larger, heavier boat then there is the Revo 13. If you want good performance, small package, light weight without instability, then you must sit lower. There is always a trade off. You can raise the seat yourself by putting a foam pad underneath the seat bottom, but you may not be comfortable with the lower stability. If your boat capsizes in that cold water then you have something more serious than a wet seat!

The Hobie Adventure is very similar in its seat height. Of course, this is not not unusual in kayaks. SIKs commonly mount the seat on the hull bottom. With no scuppers, any water entering just sloshes around.

Why doesn't Hobie provide self bailing scuppers? I don't know, but suspect that any valve can get jammed by small debris, sand or dirt, wedged open and then you have no way to seal off the water inflow. Then everyone would complain about the bad design!

If you want to try your own, an alternate way to do this is with a small flapper valve glued to the bottom of your scupper plug. I built one a few years ago using the valve from an old gas siphon hose (probably got this from an auto parts store) -- looks like this:
Image
This type of valve is also found in medical equipment -- you could check with some medical supply houses.

The valve comes installed in its own housing. To install the assembly:
1. trim the tabs off the plug and sand the bottom smooth
2. drill a small hole from the bottom to open up a drain passage
3. glue the valve to the bottom of your plug. When done it looks like this:
Image

You only need to modify one plug to achieve cockpit draining.

Two areas of caution -- the valve must be small enough to fit inside the threaded scupper hole. The valve housing may be Polyethylene and difficult to get a strong bond with many glues or epoxies.

If you do this, you should also tape the leading edge of your scupper hole on the hull bottom to create a negative pressure under the scupper when in motion (see below). Standard shipping tape (shown) works fine. This will assist in sucking the water out.
Image

Mine worked well enough, but the valve finally broke off and I never bothered to redo it. When water comes in you get wet anyway -- you can reach down and crack the scupper valve by hand to drain (while moving at least 3 mph) then reseal it. But then, the water is warmer here than in Holland! 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Revo 11 wish list
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:23 pm
Posts: 10
At roadrunner: thanks a lot for your reply. I will study your solution, but it looks rather daunting to me. I am still puzzled why the Revo 11 gets more water into the cockpit than the others.
Anyway, I made a rather long trip to the dealer, but it was totally worth it because he adjusted the rudder and the rudder lines in such a way that it operates very smoothly now.
Thanks again. Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Revo 11 wish list
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:03 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 2073
Location: High Point, NC
It gets more water in the seat area because the bottom of the seat pocket is lower than the level of the water outside. In effect, the instant you put it on the water and get into it, water flows in from the scuppers. Now you can plug the scuppers but then any water than splashes in can't get out and eventually you have an even deeper tub of water to sit in.

This may or may not work for you. It's what I did in my Adventure. Made a world of difference, although any loss of stabilty isn't likely to be noticed due the amas, which your Revo doesn't have. So be aware than raising the seat will move your center of gravity. It may or may not bother you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrdT0gzQPww


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 Post subject: Re: Revo 11 wish list
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:37 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:17 pm
Posts: 164
Location: Homosassa, Florida
Quote:
The rudder is more or less moveable now, following the advice from roadrunner, but not enough to get the rudder out of the notch. Which still leaves me stuck in the weeds.


Take a knife and trim the notch a little at a time until it does not lock down so tight. Problem solved.

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 Post subject: Re: Revo 11 wish list
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:44 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:23 pm
Posts: 10
At Tom Kirkman:
Very nice job! However, I am light enough to sit dry when I start out, but somehow the Revo 11 catches more water, which flows in to the seat area, than my previous two Hobies.

At ranger908: That is a very good idea. It is exactly what my dealer did (with sanding paper instead of a knife). It goes smoothly now.
Cheers!

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