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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:19 am 
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I sail waves all the time but have been thinking of getting an island adventure. How does the island sail different? Is it as fast or faster? As stable? Does it sail upwind better or worse? I can't find one to demo so I need to ask my questions here.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:25 am 
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I haven't sailed a Wave so I really can't be of much help other than to say these are two completely different type boats. The center cockpit and Mirage Drive of the Island kayak make it much more versatile than a standard catamaran. It will likely be more stable due to the greater width and can be sailed very close to the wind if you use the MD to change the apparent wind a few degrees. The Wave has more sail area than the Adventure Island so it may be a little faster. But I'm not really sure. Just two very different type boats.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:05 am 
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Yeah I get they are apples to oranges, but I've got 99.9 of all my experience in waves and other cats so it's all I have to compare it to.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:20 am 
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I guess the better question might be, what do you intend to use the Adventure for? Strictly sailing or more general purpose sailing and camping, fishing, etc.?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:33 am 
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A bit of everything. Exploring and not having to worry about the wind dying ten miles from home.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:53 am 
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In that case I think you'd like the AI a lot.

...........


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:52 am 
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An Adventure Island will not be as fast as the Wave and will not sail as high a course, but you can use the pedals to sail straight up wind.

The Island is more stable.

The Island can be used is a wider range of conditions from no wind to high wind.

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Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:49 pm 
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I can't really store both nor spend the money to store them so I'm thinking the AI might win when it comes to pure utility. I love my wave but it's not the best for river travel.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:51 am 
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Especially down here in Florida just about every afternoon at close to the same time the wind dies. One reason we chose the TI over the h16 or wave was the ability to pedal back to shore if the wind dies, well the versatility and ability to use on small rivers and fishing, diving,adventuring was also a big factor. You can use the adventure boats for just about anything I have been able to think of.
But that's not the point I'm trying to make.
My opinion is the wave, H16, getaway,and especially the new T2 would greatly benefit from a swing down mirage drive option.
I have seen several hobiecats with swing down kicker motors. The mirage drive would be mounted in a similar swing down bracket. Think about it if there is no wind your only other choice is to paddle with your hands (like I used to do with my sunfish) or a paddle, neither option is fun. Another thing I have seen a lot of cats working very hard to get in and out of the local harbor because the island, and all the big sail boats block the wind.
The mirage drive weighs about 6 lbs, so it's not like having to haul around a 40 lb motor. And it is also cheaper. If racing, you would just leave it in the car of course.
It would certainly make the wave, t2 or getaway more versatile as family fun boats.
Now here is the kicker, which would set hobiecats apart from anything else out on the water.
That same swing down motor mount will also easily fit an evolve electric propulsion system.
There would be no day you can't go out on any hobiecat product.
My current TI is setup for power sailing giving me unbelievable performance even in very low wind conditions. That's on a boat with a not so great hull design, and not enough sail area. Just imagine the performance you would get with low drag cat hulls and giant sails.
I know a little about this stuff, and looking at the specs on the t2 I see no reason you couldn't power sail in very low winds (under 5mph) using under 120 watts of power with the evolve in excess of ten mph regardless of wind direction ( you create your own apparent wind when power sailing) so the actual wind direction doesn't matter ( you can also sail almost directly into the wind as well.
As soon as the wind picks back up, you simply turn it off and raise it out of the water. The entire evolve system only weighs 15 lbs so it's not breaking the bank weight wise, and could be just stored on the boat for emergency power when not being used.
The best part for Hobie is their mirage drive and evolve system are heavily covered by their patents, so they would be truly unique in the market place. Plus there would be a huge revenue stream from existing hobiecat users wanting the upgrade option.
With the mirage drive safety option, the only time it would be used would be for drivin in harbors, and getting out and back in no wind (irons) so it wouldn't be a big deal if the peddler is facing backwards. The new t2 would be particularly attractive because ther is lots if room in front of the sail to string a solar panel between the longer hulls ( for the evolve as an option).
Plus both the mirage and evolve would be fantastic for moving around busy boat docks, harbors, and marinas. On the intercoastal there are many very narrow channels and inlets there are very difficult to negotiate. If you live on one of those canals, and have a dock, it's sometimes a 1/4 mile to get out to open water, I do it with my TI all the time (go thru canals, like the one in Key Largo to get from the gulf to the atlantic), it would be really hard to sail thru there, but the mirage drive and/or motor (evolve or small hybrid gas) makes it painless.
Am I the only one who thinks about this stuff.....
Bob


Last edited by fusioneng on Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:07 am 
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Funny that you mention this. As I sail with some guys who have cats and watch their frustration when the wind dies or when trying to beach their boats in crowded areas, I've often thought that if Hobie made a self contained Mirage Drive accessory unit that could be used on their other boats as an aid when there is no wind, or during difficult docking or beach landings, it would serve as the ideal auxiliary power plant for them.

I doubt these folks would use the drive on a regular basis as many of us with MD kayaks do, but if they had the option to buy such a thing as an accessory for their boats, I think many just might do it. I sure would. And, it might tempt me to buy a Hobie Cat.

If I could buy a Mirage Drive accessory unit for my Weta, I'd do that in heartbeat, too. After furling the sail on the TI and using the MD to easily cruise and navigate through crowded docking areas, I sure miss the MD on my other boats. The most excitement I'm having lately isn't sailing - it's trying to take a sailboat with non furlable and non reefing sails into a confined area with many other boats and not hit any of them while fighting a variety of wind conditions. What is easy in the Hobie Mirage Drive boats can be a nightmare in anything else.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:20 am 
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Tom:
Yea you get spoiled with the Island boats and their mirage drives, even with my TI I've been blown into million dollar yachts in crowded harbors, lucky nobody was home at the time (we'll keep that on the down low). I would think it would be 10 times more difficult on a cat without any auxiliary power.
If I had an evolve/solar system and a T2 (for R&D, I could probably also do the same with a Getaway), I would have one of my wing jib sails on it in a heartbeat, and have it powersailing at 2x to 3x wind speed within 2-3 months. I'm pretty sure with that hull design and sail area (which would be perfect for my purposes) I could get that thing going with an evolve/solar system to 10mph in really light winds (<4mph), drawing less than 120 watts of power regardless of wind direction and in standard winds (>5mph) I think I could do 3x wind speed (15 mph plus), and possibly even faster downwind. Of course if the wind picks up you just turn it all off and just sail. Of course the actual wind direction is no longer important in light winds, as you should be able to sail almost directly into the wind as I do now with my TI currently. And with a big solar panel up front, I'm pretty sure I would be good all day (with a pair of 320ah batteries).
When powersailing the only purpose of the auxillary propulsion (Evolve) is to negate the wetted surface drag on the hull, kind of like foils, but way more efficient, way cheaper, way less finicky, and it works opposite from foils, whereas with foils you have to go faster for them to work, with the auxillary power, it's especially efficient at lower speeds. The perfect boat would have the evolve to cover all the low end, and engage able foils for high speed operation. The auxillary propulsion could also be used to get you thru the dead zone (up to foil speed).
One of these days I'll build one just for the heck of it (a modified T2, or Getaway). But until I get the money to build something like that ('yea' like the wife would ever approve LOL), I'll just enjoy my modified TI which will never be that good, but it's close enough for me.
None of this stuff is complex at all, anyone can do it.
I keep saying even Hobie has not fully grasped what they have invented yet, and what to do with the stuff (my opinion of course)

Oops sorry about venturing off topic, but you could include the wave in the same list above.
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:58 am 
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Really interesting topic. Id love it if I could use my wave to explore the rivers and springs down here in Florida. Also being able to motor in when the wind dies and I'm out of site of the land would be nice.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:19 pm 
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There is a limit to how much boat the current Mirage Drive (and the human body) can propel. I doubt the MD would ever turn any of the cats into boats that could be used as good pedal powered craft in the way that the Hobie kayaks and Islands are. My thought is just to have it for short term use to get out of trouble, negotiate a harbor or landing, etc.

And it wouldn't surprise me if they've already thought of this and for some reason we're overlooking, decided not to pursue it. Then again...


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:58 pm 
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Tom:
I think you are correct, the mirage on a cat would only be practical for what you described (getting around marinas, and pedaling in when the wind dies), no matter how you cut it, the Mirage is less expensive than any gas kicker motor alternative, and who would want all that weight (from the motor) on their cat.
Think about it, the new player in town is the electric Evolve system (with optional solar), which fits into the same mounts as the Mirage with no additional changes necessary. Basically you could have both systems on board. And in my opinion with the development of the tri-power capability it means a whole new family market direction for Hobie. I for one am totally sold on the concept, and absolutely love and am truly amazed at the system I developed for my own use, it was just out of dumb luck, that I happened on it when I was breaking my motor in.
In my opinion any family with young children is going to be adverse risk. Which means if the winds are more than say 10mph out, they might think twice about taking the whole family out on the cat, I doubt many will put a cat on one hull with their small kids on board. Or if there is a good likelihood of the wind dying, they will pass and not take the risk of going out and possibly not be able to get back in.
And when the water is very flat with very low wind, nobody wants to chuck along at 3mph. Though safe for the small family, or to take grandma and grandpa for a nice sunset sail (with the bench seats of course) your not going to be going very far, or very fast. No need to fit them up for the harness LOL.
Personally I prefer low winds and very flat water ( I guess I'd better because that's pretty much all we have around here). If I can get going 10-15 mph in those flat conditions with my family on board, I'm going to go exploring and adventuring (just like we all do on our Adventure boats). So what if it costs me a dollar or two for gas for the day (with a gas hybrid motor), or I have to charge the batteries the night before. We could actually go out and do things with the cats, and actually go places (destination sailing like we do with the Islands), with no concern about the possibility of the wind dying.
I just think it would be nice that's all, and I think i'm gonna build me one.
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:18 pm 
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It would be nice, and you'd never regret having something on your boat that might save you from, or at least reduce, a major headache out on the water.

This past spring I spent an hour sailing the TriFoiler (Fantastic!) and then three hours making my way back a couple miles to the launch. Wind died completely. If I had had a Mirage Drive in it (somehow), I'd have been back in 30 minutes or so.


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