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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:29 pm 
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Was watching a video on YouTube today and think I might have discovered which color I would prefer my future Hobie kayak to be....

ROYAL BLUE!!!

(watch around the 3:00 minute mark)

The guy states that "in the field", black zip ties will be lucky to last 2 years tops. But the blue zip ties will last at least 10 years. Very interesting thought. I'd guess that anything but black would be good. But blue must be the best, and he offers a reason why is that it "fights" UV light, I guess you could say.

Interested in fusioneng's thoughts on this, for sure.

Also interesting that my local dealer's in-store and demo models were this royal blue color. Coincidence?? 8)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:44 pm 
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Another thought is that after a hurricane, we see a lot of blue tarps on roofs.

Hmm.... why not grey, white, or green tarps?? Hmmm... I think I know why now!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:19 am 
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Seriously, your going to base your scientific evidence of best kayak color for UV resistance from a guy on a youtube video who uses plastic ties?
:lol: :lol: :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:27 am 
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UV inhibitors can be/are added to plastics and other materials in order to improve their life when exposed to sun light.
The flip side of these improvements is the "end of life in a land fill issue"....these plastics have become so robust that they do not break down once scrapped in a land fill......think of an archeologist dig in 500,000 years and they "discover" as pristine Hobie kayak :wink:

Chemists have been working on UV exposure for years.......just look at how human sun screens have improved over the last 25 years to help prevent skin cancer/sun burns by UVA and UVB exposure.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:29 am 
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Doctorbuzz:
Most medicines and beer are destroyed or degraded by UV light. (UV means ultra violet), UV is actually in the invisible spectrum, we can't see UV because the lenses in our eyes block it. Actually people with brown eyes have way better natural protection against UV and typically don't need to wear sun glasses (I've never worn them), and people with blue eyes have almost no natural uv protection so everyone highly recommends people with blue eyes always wear sun glasses outdoors (especially in Florida).
If your into photo developing (one of my hobbies) you can actually block certain colors of light with another color, for example to block blue light you would apply a yellowish brown filter to your lense. Since blue is fairly close to the wave length of ultra violet, by blocking the blue some of the UV is blocked (but of course not all). That's why all medicine bottles are yellowish brown, and nearly all beer bottles are brown, those colors block uv the best naturally without the need for expensive additives, if you don't believe me just look at any medicine bottle or pretty much any beer bottle in the world.
All of Hobies boats have UV inhibitors added to the plastic to protect the plastic molecules from sun damage so honestly it makes little difference what color you buy, the same applies to pretty much anything designed to be out in the sun commercially (the actual visible color isn't significant since UV is invisible anyway).
Basically a blue Hobie won't last any longer than a red, yellow, or dune Hobie as far as actual degradation and breakdown of the plastic material itself. However appearance may change depending on the colorant used (red may become pink over time, but this is only optical, it doesn't necessarily mean the plastic itself is degraded (because the additives protect the plastics molecule chains)). Bottom line, your boat color isn't important as far as plastic life goes.
If you go to this web site it explains a little about carbon black (the most used additive to make black plastic). http://www.zeusinc.com/UserFiles/zeusin ... erties.pdf
Those Panduit pull ties are designed for outdoor use (with UV inhibitors mixed into the resin itself) doesn't really matter what color you choose, his just happened to be blue.
The whole point in my comment about black plastic is if you buy something that was not designed specifically for outdoor use (with loads of expensive UV inhibitors added to the plastic during compounding), then your next best bet is to select a color that has carbon black in it (basically black) since carbon black naturally obsorbs UV so it will last longer in the sun on a molecular level than say a red, yellow,blue, or even white piece of plastic. Even with white plastics you have to be careful, the two most common additives to make the color white are calcium carbonate (very cheap), and titanium dioxide (very expensive), whereas calcium carbonate doesn't block uv at all and titanium dioxide blocks most UV (similar to carbon black), you have no way to find out which additive they used to make the plastic just by looking at it. Basically if it was designed and sold for outdoor (in the sun) use it usually states that on the package and is always way more expensive. The only exception to that rule is black, since 99% of the black colorant used is carbon black whether it's designed for indoor or outdoor use, it's all the same additive and it's cheap ( I'm kind of a cheap guy).
Now lets move on to tarps and pool covers all being blue. This is for an opposite and unrelated reason with relevance to the opposite end of the light spectrum infa-red (IR), just like a photographic lense filter, the color blue blocks red light. So on a blue pool solar cover or a blue tarp, the blue color obsorbs the infa-red (IR) radiation from the sun creating as much heat as possible (making your pool warmer). IR radiation doesn't attack the plastic molecules nearly as much as UV so it's not a major concern. I suspect the only reason all tarps are blue is because people like that color over the other choices, nothing whatsoever to do with anything else.
Sorry it took so much to explain such a simple thing. Sometimes it's better not to know the details of stuff, just run with it, if it's on Youtube it must be true LOL
The only travesty here is that the AI/TI is no longer available in blue, so we are all doomed. Probably why Hobie stopped selling blue AI's so they don't end up in landfills in 500,000 years) (planned obsolescence).
Bob


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:19 pm 
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Most kayak manufacturers will state that they have UV inhibitors mixed in to their yaks but that's not enough if you plan on keeping your yak in tip top shape for as long as possible in regards to UV degradation.

Used kayak prices are determined (in a big way) by how much sun and general wear and tear it's received over the years and how well it's been taken care of, yaks that have extensive sun damage are easy to spot and don't command nearly as much $$$.


Every Kayak manufacturer that i'm aware of strongly advises against storing poly yaks in direct sunlight because of it , regardless of if they are treated or not.


The below explanation is pretty good and Hobies McNett UV protector and 303 are excellent.


Quote:
ULTRAVIOLET RADIATION:
Only a small portion of solar radiation consists of invisible ultraviolet (UV) light. But the light in this spectral range is responsible for photo degradation. Photo degradation results in discoloration, fading, embrittlement, cracking, chalking and/or loss of mechanical properties. Chalking gelcoat fiberglass, yellowing plastics, fading and weakening fabrics and sunburned skin are all familiar problems caused by UV light. Before UV light can cause harm, it must first be absorbed. If it is not turned into heat or transferred to a nearby stabilizer molecule called a quencher, it breaks weak chemical bonds. This is the beginning of UV damage.

Some materials absorb UV light more readily than other materials. Materials that readily absorb UV light are quickly damaged...rubber, vinyls, gelcoat fiberglass, and many other plastics. Acrylic is slow to absorb UV light and accordingly very resistant to photo degradation.

UV stabilizers are a group of chemical agents with the ability to counteract or neutralize the harmful effects of UV light. Competitive absorbers provide protection by converting UV light to heat so it can dissipate harmlessly (See Vol. I). Other UV stabilizers work differently. All UV stabilizers are consumed as they do their job. In a way, they serve as sacrificial molecules, taking the abuse from the UV light instead of the material they are protecting.

This brief overview greatly simplifies this very complex subject. Discoloring due to absorbers that have absorbility into the visible light range is a problem. And there are many others.

Two important points: UV stabilizers have to be periodically renewed or replenished if continuing UV protection is to be achieved. Second, there is no such thing as a permanent UV stabilizer. a matter of physics, not chemistry.

A FEW MORE FACTS. . .

When UV light is absorbed, it starts to break (cleave) weak chemical bonds which leads to bleaching (fading), discoloration, chalking, brittleness and cracking, all indications of UV deterioration.

The bond cleavages resulting from UV absorption cause the formation of "radicals." Each free radical can trigger a chain of reactions (in the presence of air), leading to more bond cleavages and destruction. These oxidating chain reactions require no further UV exposure, just the presence of air.

Thus, it is important to provide UV protection with agents that use competitive absorption to convert the light wave energy into harmless heat (like carbon black does in tires - refer to Vol. I). It is equally important to protect with quenching agents that have radical scavenging ability.

Summary: No matter what it's called UV protection, UV screening, sunblock - to provide true UV protection in a maintenance product form, it is necessary to utilize effective, active chemical agents called UV stabilizers.

Tech Facts

Untreated rubber, vinyl and other plastics readily absorb, and are degraded by, UV light.



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:38 am 
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cnnashman:
That's a pretty good explanation that you found, I had looked around a little, but most of the stuff I found was heralding each manufacturers solution as the only way without much explanation of the chemistry ( a lot of garbage out there on the subject).
It's a given I think that if you want to prevent UV damage to your Hobie that it should be stored either indoors or covered and/or out of the sun. We keep all of our kayaks in our garage. Unfortunately at our key west place we don't have a garage and our TI ends up being locked to the roof of our SUV sometimes for weeks at a time. I really notice the UV degradation during those times and how quickly it starts to damage things. The mesh pockets seem to get damaged the most. Of course anything that can be removed from the boat ( ie... sails, seats, paddles, mirage drives, etc) is kept in the house. Since I always carry spf 50 spray on sun block anyway I typically shoot some onto the mesh pockets and the hatch covers when I think of it. Also me being the cheap skate I am I can't really afford the 303 spray so I usually spray down the boat weekly with Armourall ( the one with UV protection ( it's much cheaper)). I suspect the thing most susceptible to sun damage is the sail itself which is made from Dacron (which I don't think is very UV tolerant). When done sailing I always wash the sails off and store in the black sail bag provided by Hobie.

One other important point I would like to make about UV damage is UV penetration depth on plastics. I can give an example, I have a Fafco solar pool heater on the roof of my house, Obviously it is designed to be out in the sun so it is chock full of UV stabilizers. It's been up there in the Florida sun about a year now and I recently needed to make some modifications to get it to work better. I had to saw off part of the red (PE plastic on/off handle), and a section of black (same material "PE"). Upon inspection the red color had completely washed out of the red handle to a depth of about 1/8 of an inch, and the plastic itself looked degraded badly "very weakened" (the UV stabilizer that would have been used while compounding would have likely been titanium dioxide ( I'm a plastics guy)). The black section that I cut showed no discoloration or degrading except a little greying only on the extreme top surface ( I'm pretty certain the colorant used would have been carbon black (the most used colorant for black, and inexpensive).
So to make a long story short (too late), the carbon black also prevents penetration of the UV light into the plastic (light penetration is the worst enemy of all, breaking down the molecules of the plastic itself under the surface). So continuously renewing the UV surface protection as cnnashman suggests is the best thing you can do for yourself to prevent UV penetration into the plastic sub layers, regardless of the actual visual color of your kayak (which is un-important).

In reality the color you choose for your Hobie kayak makes very little difference as far as fading and sun damage goes (they are all well protected), just select the color you like and have fun. Taking care of the boat is what makes the difference.

I apologize for all my long posts, but I'm a strong believer in people understanding the physics, science, and reasoning behind all the stuff that I talk about so you can individually make our own decisions for yourself based on your own knowledge verses most of the promotional crap that is out there most of which is simply untrue (especially these days via the internet).
Hope this helps
Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:09 pm 
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I have had black last a lot longer than two years. the white or neutral color ones are the worst. Same in PVC pipe the ABS BLack And the Electrical Grey last a lot longer than the white PVc. That being said Chemical make up also has more to do than color. These are my observations in the Mechanical and Agricultural world I sold parts for 40 yrs but I'm no more an authority than the man on U tube. So going by my experience with ties buy a black Hobie.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:41 pm 
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fusioneng wrote:
cnnashman:
That's a pretty good explanation that you found, I had looked around a little, but most of the stuff I found was heralding each manufacturers solution as the only way without much explanation of the chemistry ( a lot of garbage out there on the subject).
It's a given I think that if you want to prevent UV damage to your Hobie that it should be stored either indoors or covered and/or out of the sun. We keep all of our kayaks in our garage. Unfortunately at our key west place we don't have a garage and our TI ends up being locked to the roof of our SUV sometimes for weeks at a time. I really notice the UV degradation during those times and how quickly it starts to damage things. The mesh pockets seem to get damaged the most. Of course anything that can be removed from the boat ( ie... sails, seats, paddles, mirage drives, etc) is kept in the house. Since I always carry spf 50 spray on sun block anyway I typically shoot some onto the mesh pockets and the hatch covers when I think of it. Also me being the cheap skate I am I can't really afford the 303 spray so I usually spray down the boat weekly with Armourall ( the one with UV protection ( it's much cheaper)). I suspect the thing most susceptible to sun damage is the sail itself which is made from Dacron (which I don't think is very UV tolerant). When done sailing I always wash the sails off and store in the black sail bag provided by Hobie.

One other important point I would like to make about UV damage is UV penetration depth on plastics. I can give an example, I have a Fafco solar pool heater on the roof of my house, Obviously it is designed to be out in the sun so it is chock full of UV stabilizers. It's been up there in the Florida sun about a year now and I recently needed to make some modifications to get it to work better. I had to saw off part of the red (PE plastic on/off handle), and a section of black (same material "PE"). Upon inspection the red color had completely washed out of the red handle to a depth of about 1/8 of an inch, and the plastic itself looked degraded badly "very weakened" (the UV stabilizer that would have been used while compounding would have likely been titanium dioxide ( I'm a plastics guy)). The black section that I cut showed no discoloration or degrading except a little greying only on the extreme top surface ( I'm pretty certain the colorant used would have been carbon black (the most used colorant for black, and inexpensive).
So to make a long story short (too late), the carbon black also prevents penetration of the UV light into the plastic (light penetration is the worst enemy of all, breaking down the molecules of the plastic itself under the surface). So continuously renewing the UV surface protection as cnnashman suggests is the best thing you can do for yourself to prevent UV penetration into the plastic sub layers, regardless of the actual visual color of your kayak (which is un-important).

In reality the color you choose for your Hobie kayak makes very little difference as far as fading and sun damage goes (they are all well protected), just select the color you like and have fun. Taking care of the boat is what makes the difference.

I apologize for all my long posts, but I'm a strong believer in people understanding the physics, science, and reasoning behind all the stuff that I talk about so you can individually make our own decisions for yourself based on your own knowledge verses most of the promotional crap that is out there most of which is simply untrue (especially these days via the internet).
Hope this helps
Bob



Well i'm no expert on the subject but i do know that using a product like Hobie's UV protectant or equivalent over not using anything will maintain the color better and prevent the brittleness that comes from leaving a yak outdoors unprotected for long periods of time .

I have personally witnessed kayak repair attempts from professionals that sell Kayaks and they have pointed out to me that some kayaks have been so neglected over the years and have extensive UV damage that they are not even worth trying to repair.

The reasoning is that some kayaks have become so brittle from UV degradation that the material just continues to spider crack in other areas while attempting repairs via welding etc...

I am not saying Hobie's or any other yak won't last years without treatment but if given a choice using a product like the one stated above does make a difference imo over not using anything.

I notice many people use the excuse of needing to cover the entire yak with the stuff , which is a waste imo , i just use it on the top deck areas that get the most exposure and i can say with certainty that it does a great job at that , the yak looks like it rolled off the showroom floor even years later (no joke).

I do love in depth analysis and you certainly know your stuff Bob, keep it up, i enjoy reading it . Oh, and don't be ridiculous about thinking you need to apologize for your long posts , i have been known to go on and on for days at a time and never coming to any type of point , just think about the outrage by people reading it .

The worst part for me is that i'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as you are which makes people even more steamed that they wasted their time even bothering to read it . I am guilty of having a very wacky sense of humor as you can see..


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:35 am 
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DoctorBuzz wrote:
The guy states that "in the field", black zip ties will be lucky to last 2 years tops. But the blue zip ties will last at least 10 years. Very interesting thought. I'd guess that anything but black would be good. But blue must be the best


In my field, the electrical field, we will fail an inspection for using anything other than black zip ties out side ( for example to secure low voltage control wiring on pool equipment).The white ones turn chalky after about a year. The black ones are listed as uv stable or something like that on the bag. The only time I've seen blue ones are the homeowner grade multi packs at Home Depot. And the black ones last much longer than two years. This has nothing to do with the color of your kayak. Just something you might find interesting.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:15 am 
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Years ago I was big into Ham radio, and helped my dad build a radio tower for his 2meter and long wave rigs. (I remember it being very tall possibly 100 ft). I had a safety harness on and actually slipped and fell while at the top, of course the safety harness saved me (I'm still alive obviously), but ever since then I am totally petrified of heights. I used black pull ties to secure some of the wires up there, if anyone wants to go up there and check on them feel free, I know I'm not going up there to check on them ( or replace them with blue ones) LOL.
If I had only known about the blue pull ties being so much better (via youtube), I would not have fallen. :lol:
Bob


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