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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:29 am 
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We have developed and patented a petrol/ electric engine that will fit 90% of kayaks/canoes and that will travel at four knots an hour all day on a litre of petrol.
The fun thing is that it has a remote control, which means no cables to and from the engine, and no big battery.
At this time it is a prototype and we have just started the process of taking this to market.
The final version will be half the size and weight.
I can supply pictures and a video that shows the very first time that we put the engine on the back of a kayak and into the water If anyone is interested we would be delighted to hear from them


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:49 pm 
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Love to see your invention. How about taking some videos and posting for all to see. Just think of it as cheep advertisement.

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Last edited by pjs on Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:04 am 
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Yes please do post a video or some pics, I'd love to see it in action.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:49 am 
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Location: Plant City, Fl.
Waiting for the video????? :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:43 am 
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Strange post by someone making their first post on this forum???? Why would you make such a post without posting pictures or videos? Why would you make a post when you are still in the protoype stage?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:14 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Norfolkguy:
This is the right place to post more info about your system, as long as your patents are secure there is no downside to talking about your system. Many of us are ocean sailers and most of the battery/electric solutions out there just don't have the speed/range/ and safety factor that is needed down in the Florida keys, and south gulf coast. As I'm sure you are aware the ocean is huge and being able to go at 2-3mph for an hour just doesn't cut it for us.
Also the currents down here in many areas can be 5-6 mph so if your caught in winds or current and 10 miles from launch you can literally get washed out to sea in a kayak, and current battery/electric system can give you maybe 15 or 20 minutes of burst speed but then the battery goes dead and your pretty much screwed.
This applies to even to the Hobie Tandem Island with full sails and pedal drives, if you get caught in 5-6mph current and with the wind wrong or dying you can get in trouble really fast, that's my reason for adding an standard outboard to my TI, as a safety backup for when we go scuba diving (mostly down in the keys). I have been caught out 10-15 miles from launch when the wind died or the weather changed and it can be very dangerous. ( The TI's are very capable boats and many have been used on 200-300 mile (or more) adventures (why it's called an adventure boat) in pretty much any conditions.
Something like what you are describing with the ability to carry extra replaceable liquid fuel on board would be welcome. I currently never go out without at least a couple gallons of fuel on board (enough for a couple hundred miles) just in case.
You will get lots of valuable feedback from many seasoned kayakers and adventurers here with many years of experience actually doing for real, what you are talking about.
The Hobie pedal yaks already have a pedal propulsion system that you can pedal all day at 3-4 mph with very little effort. Adding something like what your describing would be definitely wanted by some of us long distance people as supplemental power, to increase speed even more while sailing and pedaling, What we call the tri-power capabilities of the Hobie boats. If you can get us to 3-4 mph with your drive (that's all we need (about 300 watts or 1 hp)), then when we add the pedals and the sails for tri-power you get something like this that sails faster than the wind and averages 6.5 to 9mph. Pretty much all Hobie kayaks with the addition of the sail kit are capable of utilizing this tri-power capability.




We are all waiting to see what ya got. You might have the holy grail of what many of us are looking for.
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:05 pm 
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Bob,

what outboard do you use on your TI and how does it 'attach' i.e. what kind of bracket do you use?

I ask because I have a very small lightweight 2-stroke of some vintage and have been thinking of using it on one or other of my kayaks - either the AI or the A. The outboard is a seabee, ~1.5 horsepower, aircooled, recoil starter so very similar in concept to the aircooled honda 4 strokes but probably a tad lighter even.

I am expecting EITHER to use a bracket attached to an ADVENTURE ISLAND aka with one or both amas deployed i.e. use the outboard on the AI with or without the sail and/or one ama but basically using at least one ama for stability & to support the weight of the outboard; OR to add a horizontal bar of square section behind the ADVENTURE seat using the existing aka attachment bolts and to set the outboard onto this either with or without a counterbalancing weight on the other end i.e use the outboard on the kayak w/o ama(s) if the extra weight can be supported. I have frequently taken my daughter out on the back of my Adventure & even with the boat loaded up with camping gear it can cope with the additional weight, so I do not think that having enough buoyancy will be the issue but having the weight out one side might cause problems hence the idea of having a counterbalance or supporting the weight on a single ama.

I have a concern that the motor (and electrics) will be very low in the water and could be subjected to a lot of sea water slopping over it - normally on a dinghy outboard motors are set much higher up with just the lower end of the shaft and prop in the water, but on a Hobie kayak the motor would be very low with the shaft well submerged. There is a bit of cowling, but not much and the HT lead to the spark plug, for example, could easily cop splash.

If you or anyone else has any experience which may help cut down the amount of experimentation/damage I will have to do/risk I would be most grateful.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:49 am 
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Stobbo:
I have a 2.3 hp Honda mounted on my TI, the motor is very small and lightweight (27 lbs). I used to have an Island Hopper 2hp 4 stroke, that served me for several years as my emergency backup motor. With my Hybrid tri-power setup I only need to run the motor at 1/4 or less throttle and it provides more than enough power for my needs so it is very fuel efficient (about 100 mpg), the rest of the power is from the pedal drives, and the sails (tri-power).

My motor mount is just PVC tubing stuck into the rod holder holes creating an A frame with two 3/8 steel rods through the pvc. A 2x4 piece of wood is the motor mount with two 7/16 dia holes drilled, then the steel rods epoxied into the board. I also filled the PVC in the high stress areas with epoxy to make them stronger. I built that motor mount 4 yrs ago and it is still going strong, but the 3/8 steel rods are all rusty ( I should have used stainless).
This setup works fine on a TI, and the motor is in a nice position, I have no idea if that same location (mounting using the rod holders) would be convenient for an AI.
Here is a link to Island hopper, they make a rod holder motor mount (http://www.islandhopperoutboards.com/ka ... ount1.html)

Hopefully this gives you some ideas. I think there are tons of posts on here with all kinds of motor mount ideas if you search around.

I've been running outboards on my TI now for 4 yrs, I go out every weekend in pretty much all conditions and have never swamped a motor.

Typically when I have the motor tilted up, I throw a cloth bag (like a tote bag or a grocery bag) over the motor head to keep it from getting too water logged from the splashes. When in rough seas (4 ft or more breakers) they both have lived thru occasional dunkings as the waves pass over the entire boat (as long as it's just a wave going over, with the motor not running and covered with the bag).
I had the island hopper on both our Oasis, and our revo's a few times, just messing about, as long as you don't tip over you should be fine. However without AMA's you need to counter balance the motor, and the setup is a little shaky (easy to tip over) If running on an adventure kayak, I would either keep one AMA on, or add Hobie sidekick AMA's just in case when using the motor (it's just too shaky without)

I find that tilting the motor slightly so the prop is almost under the boat gives you the best steering using the main rudder on the boat. If the main rudder breaks you can still steer with the motor tiller, but I normally keep the motor tiller locked.

One other point is if you plan to use the motor for powersailing or tri-power, changing to a higher pitch prop helps, because pretty much all the small motors have very low pitch props (typically about 4"-5" inch pitch, basically designed to propel much heavier boats) will only get you to 4 mph max speed. Going to a higher pitch prop (6" to 8" pitch) allows the kayak to go much faster with sail and pedal assist.

Hope this helps

Bob


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:24 pm 
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Bob, sure does thanks! I will do some more research on the forums.

To everyone else, apologies for hijacking the thread to ask this question!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:54 am 
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stobbo:
I wonder if anyone has tried heating up and tried to bend the plastic props on their trolling motors (or small outboards with the plastic props) to try and increase the prop pitch. It seems pretty much every prop sold (from my research) for small electric trolling motors and small outboards appear to have a pitch which can only propel any boat up to around 4 mph and that's it, whether the boat is very light (like a kayak) or a big ole powerboat, the top speed appears to remain the same (I don't know if anyone else has noticed that), even going to a big 55 lb trolling motor the top speed appears to remain the same with kayaks.
My thought is especially with Hobie pedal drive kayaks, it works best to take advantage of the pedal drive system (by actually pedaling all the time), then use the electric drive or small outboard for supplemental power to increase speed and range.
By adding a sail kit into the mix and going to tri-power (using all the available power forces at the same time. I feel a Hobie pedal kayak (with the sail option, and a small supplemental power source ) to be the best thing on the market today.
Hopefully if these guys have indeed came up with the holy grail for us (and it's affordable), they will have thought of this and make available a very high pitch prop option specifically for Hobie tri-power kayaks (basically any Hobie mirage kayak made).
This is just my personal opinion of course but since the Hobie kayaks are designed from the ground up to utilize the Mirage pedal system, and the option sail (everything they make is designed from scratch to take full advantage of all these feature), why would anyone want to buy any other brand boat and try to make it all work together (just my personal opinion of course). Adding a reliable lightweight supplemental hybrid affordable power source that can last for many hours without leaving you stranded out on the water with a dead battery would be a win win for everyone. I wish Hobie promoted the tri-power capabilities of their kayaks more (it's truly unique and sets them apart and miles ahead of everything else out there).

My opinion is trying to adapt the current trolling motor market stuff (with huge heavy batteries, and designed to push huge powerboats short distances at very low speeds) onto kayaks is stupid and ill advised (just my opinion).
We need something new with our kayaks (hopefully these guys get it).
Of course it can't be heavy, loud and obnoxious ( like a harbor freight generator lashed to the rear deck trying to drive a trolling motor, (that would be dumb)), and needs to be fairly water and salt water corrosion resistant, and able to be used in the very wet (close to the water) kayak environment.
Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:30 pm 
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Trolling motors remain viable for kayaks, but not with the props that currently ship with them. That's where the biggest problem lies - you can't make use of the motor's power because the prop is already overrunning with a little lightweight kayak.

We did custom make/shape one (starting with a large RC aircraft prop) and with a Motor Guide 30lb thrust were able to push a Pro Angler just under 6MPH. Vibration was a bit much, but the prop wasn't balanced.

There are plenty of good electric motor options, along with small, lightweight lithium battery options, but there just aren't any props made for pushing such small craft.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:34 am 
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fusioneng:

Since we're all waiting to hear from Norfolkguy on his new invention I feel safe in posting this information concerning varying pitch on propellers since the topic seems to have changed a little on this thread.

Try this web sight:
http://www.kipawapropellers.com/

Although I have never tried a Kipawa propeller, I plan on doing so as soon as I finish upgrading my PA12, just to see if there's any difference in longevity from my battery with the new propeller's use - it's a three blade with increased pitch. There are a lot of testimonials on that website from people with large boats that swear by the change. One testimonial mentions an increase from 3.2 to 4.2 mph using two 65# thrust motors (man this guy must own a battery company and a very large boat). If this is true, and I'm sure it could be, a change in propellers from standard to a Kipawa might be something that everyone is looking for.

Just my two cents.

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2013 Pro-Angler 12 Olive

Heroes don't wear capes; they wear dog tags


Last edited by pjs on Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:11 am 
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I have one of those props and never found any difference in speed or battery life.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:29 am 
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pjs:
I doubt very much we will hear back from that guy (one post wonder) so we might as well use this thread talking about related topics. Since this topic in my opinion is the Holy Grail for us.

I'm pretty frustrated with the state of the art in small motors (trolling motors, etc) for kayaks and small sailing vessels, for both primary and auxiliary propulsion on our types of boats (ie... kayaks, sailing kayaks, and small sail boats), even though this industry is much larger than the power boating market (and growing) the manufacturers continue to put out crap for 16 ft bass boats intended to crawl the boat along at a snails pace for a short duration while trolling, none are intended as primary or auxillary propulsion. You break any trolling motor out of the box and that's what it's made for. I feel this market to be very mature, and shrinking fast because people simply can't afford to do that anymore. We had a Sea Ray that cost over $60k and it cost us $300.00+ per month to store in dry storage, not including the fuel cost (@ $4.50/gallon at marinas) who can afford that....
This is a far cry from what we are trying to use this exact same equipment for on sailing kayaks (most yaks max out at 200 lbs).

It just seems everyone invents exactly the same stuff over and over again, the gas engine hasn't changed much in a hundred years, and sailing is the same now as it was 2000 yrs ago, nothing new out there.

Now with propellers it is really odd that there is nothing out there besides re-hashes of all the same old stuff, you choice is do you want 2 blades or 3, and that's pretty much it. I went to the Kipawa propeller website, and it's just more of the same (for bass boats)

As a design expert I guess I see this more than most. For example why can't they build a prop with a 10" pitch that is made from a flexible spring type plastic like Delrin (Delrin is used to make plastic springs, and can flex a gizzilian times without fatigue). When you accelerate from a dead stop the propeller would flatten out to say 4" pitch to get you started, then as the boat speeds up the perpetual motion of the forward speed requires less driving force so the prop can bite better as the boat speeds up. The prop would never cavitate like most constant pitch props do now. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out, it's pretty apparent on pretty much any boat out there, the first time you ride in it.
As an example my Honda 2.3 gas emergency motor which is really well designed and made has serious problems right out of the box. When I go out powersailing and using the pedal drives, wing sails, and the motor all at the same time (tri-power). The motor is no longer the primary propulsion source. With the stock 4.5" pitch prop (designed to push a 3000 lb 16ft bass boat) I can get the boat up to 5mph easily with just the motor, however when I engage the pedal drives and the wing sails the boat speeds up. The engine throttle remains the same so fuel consumption stays constant, but the engine RPM's keep increasing as the boat speeds up. When you get over 10mph the motor is running at full rpm even though the throttle is still at 1/4 throttle. If I speed up more the engine will explode (even at 1/4 throttle). With the 7 inch prop that top speed increases to around 15 mph, with a 10 inch pitch prop that speed would be around 20 mph (the current max speed I allow my TI to travel).
Actually at idle (just high enough to engage the clutch) the 7" prop propels the boat to 3-4 mph 'engine idling'.

That's another thing, I have found that as long as keep pedaling the mirage drives, they keep on providing propulsion force even at higher boat speeds (> 15mph) pretty awesome design, which makes a huge difference on fuel consumption.

The down side to wing sails is you have to generate forward motion and create apparent wind for all the chain reactions to occur. Basically the wing sails work similar to air conditioners (basically just a giant amplifier, taking a constant force (created by the wind created by your forward motion) and amplifying it). That's why the motor and pedal drives are needed (the sails are amplifiers, not the primary propulsion force).

My opinion a prop like this would be a boon to Hobie sailing kayaks that don't get all their propulsion for just the motor (tri-power). My thought it would conserve battery power tremendously.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:48 am 
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Not to offend your many excellent points, but I would point out that sailing has changed quite a bit in the last 200 years, including the mating of the type hulls and sails that have allowed directional travel as opposed to simply running downwind. Not to mention the vast change in the materials used to make sails and lines in the past half century. Imagine your TI with a wood, steel or even aluminum mast, and a sail made from duck sheeted with hemp!

Beyond that, it would be interesting to see what trolling motor manufacturers could do if they were to apply their knowledge and ability to crafting a motor/prop combination expressly designed to motivate small personal watercraft. I suppose the Torqeedo/Evolve folks are in the lead in that department, but without viable competition the process isn't likely to proceed beyond a snail's pace.


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