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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:04 pm 
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Tom:
I think ancient people knew a lot more than they we give them credit for (the real history is definitely not what we were all taught in school). Considering something like a half million tons of copper were mined out of Michigan sometime around 2500BC and fueled most of the bronze age worldwide, many ancient artifacts contain copper from Michigan (chemical analysis). It had to be transported somehow, I assume by sailing ships. ( http://frontiers-of-anthropology.blogsp ... lture.html)
Same with Polynesians they have found Polynesian settlements in South America dating to around 1000BC, these are the guys who sailed the Tandem Island type boats all over the pacific (including Hawaii). Who knows what was going on back then (maybe the TI has been on the market longer than we thought (ie... 10,000 yrs LOL). I suspect this is not the first rodeo for us, I suspect we have advanced then got wiped out at least 4-5 times over history.

I know what you mean though, I'm glad I don't have to use hemp on my sail control line anymore (yea as if I ever did), that stuff is nasty and abrasive.

Today I'm just bored and bouncing off the walls (too cold to go out sailing)
Bob


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:47 pm 
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People have been sailing for thousands of years but they relied on the trade or prevailing winds. This required different routes to go different places.

The Vikings had the hulls that would do it but not the sails. The Chinese had the sails but not the hulls. What we think of in terms of directional sailing today only came about as recently as the 19th century by European ship builders combining earlier hulls and sails from different cultures.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:25 pm 
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Tom:
Thanks for the advise on the Kipawa prop. I remember reading about them last year somewhere on this forum, and your input then. But I couldn't find the thread before I put my two cents in on this thread above.
If the Kip. prop didn't do anything for you, I'll just use my money somewhere else.

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2013 Pro-Angler 12 Olive

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Last edited by pjs on Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:34 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
That's another thing, I have found that as long as keep pedaling the mirage drives, they keep on providing propulsion force even at higher boat speeds (> 15mph) pretty awesome design, which makes a huge difference on fuel consumption.
That's one of the very cool things about the Mirage Drive that most folks don't realize -- variable pitch fins (I like to think of them as contra-rotating prop blades)!

Quote:
I think ancient people knew a lot more than they we give them credit for (the real history is definitely not what we were all taught in school). Considering something like a half million tons of copper were mined out of Michigan sometime around 2500BC and fueled most of the bronze age worldwide, many ancient artifacts contain copper from Michigan (chemical analysis). It had to be transported somehow, I assume by sailing ships. ( http://frontiers-of-anthropology.blogsp ... lture.html)
Facinating story. I read the blog though and noted that, in spite of the author's rather rigorous intolerance for doubters, his inability to conform any of his alleged independent source references that he referred to and that there doesn't seem to be any confirming evidence (European settlements, wrecks, ancient trade records or written or symbolic evidence) makes me somewhat suspicious. He sounds a little bit like the poster who started this topic. Lets hope both of their claims pan out ultimately!

Fun discussion in any event! 8)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:41 am 
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Roadrunner:
Yea it's a fascinating story, I guess I'm just into this kind of stuff.
We until recently spent most summers up in that area (my wifes family was originally from Canada/Michigan before moving to Florida), and I'm originally from Canada (near that area, and my dad was interested in this kind of stuff just like me). The locals know the history about the copper mines but don't talk about it much (not in any history books, so it didn't happen). They say 1.5 billion pounds of copper we stolen by the Minoans starting in around 4000bc (proven by carbon dating of mine timbers in some of the 10,000 mines on the island. They now have proven that it was the Minoans who mined it, they found and authenticated clay tablets found in the area with Minoan writing on them and dated and authenticated to around that time. I'm sure the US government is trying to track them down to pay back taxes on the copper (LOL).

They estimate it took at least 5000 workers several thousand years to mine and transport the copper (by many hundreds or maybe thousands of sailing ships), where it was traded all over the world (including Europe and asia). It's been scientifically proven that a very large percentage of the copper used in the bronze age (worldwide) was from Michigan (proven by chemical analysis).
Here is a replica of one of their small ships.
Image

They think the Minoans used large sailing ships as big as 120ft long, and they are pretty sure those ships were able to sail up wind, there had to be thousands of these ships traveling the entire world in order to account for all the copper (BTW in those days Copper was much more valuable than gold). Some of those ships were 3 times the size of Christopher Columbus's biggest ship (the Santa Maria). I've sailed past replicas of Christopher Columbus's ships, they are tiny. The only Minoan ship ever found had several tons of copper ingots (from Michigan (proven by chemical analysis)) on board (I believe found in the Mediterranean), along with tons of trading goods (spices, etc).
All this pre-dates the Egyptian empire by many thousands of years.
They were wiped out by a volcano (biggest eruption in history) and the sunami that followed, then the remaining people were slaughtered by the Greeks.
We can only assume given the value of copper at the time (more valuable than gold), where and how they were getting their copper from was a closely guarded state secret by their society, and died with them. And their knowledge of ship building and navigation would also be held secret because of it's value to their society.
They say the Minoans were not Greeks, they were more related to the Iranians (DNA analysis). And those same DNA markers are in many native American tribes in North America now.

It's in my opinion one of the most fascinating things in history (especially their mariner and sailing knowledge), and a perfect example of how wrong our history books are and what we have been taught all of our lives, and proves that tri power propulsion (just like the Adventure Island boats have) actually works (OK that might be a stretch).

Actually there was a show all about this on the History Channel last year called "great lakes copper heist" it originally aired on Jan 14, 2013 as part of the tv series America Unearthed. For those with on demand, I'm sure it's easy to find.

fun stuff kind of Hobie related because they were sailers, and had boats with both paddles and sails, and used them both together quite effectively to navigate all the worlds oceans (kind of like the Adventure boats) 6000 years ago.
Its a fun story, but that's all it is , a story that pretty un provable. They say that after the Minoans stopped coming to buy their copper (the Minoans were were destroyed when Atlantis sunk), the miners relocated further south to the Madison wi area (where I spent most of my life) and became the mound builders. They now own a casino in Wisconsin dells (lol). Actually devils lake state park is one of my favorite places ( a bunch of effigy mounds are there), like I said it's just a fun story and one of the things we wunder about.
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:17 pm 
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Great story Bob -- thanks for sharing! It feels that we're in a new age of discovery -- there have been so many advances in archeology, astronomy, medicine, etc. etc.! Everything has been revised significantly since I first learned it on the clay tablets. :lol: All very exciting to me as well! They've learned a lot of new stuff about the Viking migrations to North America in recent years and I'm confident they will get this one figured out as well -- maybe even in my lifetime?!

Back to Hobies and propulsion for a moment -- I still marvel at the Mirage Drive -- so simple, yet so elegant -- and totally undiscovered until Greg Ketterman figured it out. An excellent example of how zeitgeist (just wanted to use the word) impacts our science as well as society. 8)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:00 am 
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I made a little research :)
Maybe this is the video that is mentioned in the first post.
Published on Jan 18, 2014
4 knots all day - one litre of fuel
Part 1

Part 2


edit:
Quote from his profile on Twitter
Quote:
alan kirkham ‏@alankirkham 24 Sep 2012
We are about to get the patent for a unique new hybrid outboard engine for small boats. It will be built in Portugal and sold via a Uk comp…


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:44 am 
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Almost seems too good to be true. If the price is affordable, I'll bet this invention will turn many heads. In any case it seems to be a good thing.
The kayak in the video seems to be floating high, so I would imagine that loaded with engine and occupant with gear too, it should be safe enough. It doesn't seem to weigh much to hamper operation, but matching a video to reality is deceiving at best.
The only problem for someone trying to sell this invention would be to figure a way to mount same on all kinds of kayaks/canoes/small boats.
Let's see how long it will take to put it on the market.

Thanks johnnybravo for the research and posting. Since the deep south USA is under a wintery advisory that we're not at all used to, I needed to have something else to think about. When the temperature down here mixes with freezing rain/snow, the whole territory panics. LOL

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2013 Pro-Angler 12 Olive

Heroes don't wear capes; they wear dog tags


Last edited by pjs on Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:45 pm 
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Location: NJ
Seems great but in my head it has to......

1. Be well under 1000$.... You can buy reputable 2.5hp outboards for under that new and they are light weight and reliable......mounting hassle would be exchanged for trusting a small company with a new product and thats if they come up with a versatile mounting system

2. Extreme reliability.....small 4stroke outboards will run forever....especially the air cooled hondas

3. Price again honestly for these things to be the next big thing they would have to be about $600-800.......picture yourself in between the used 2.5 honda for 550$ or this thing....resale, reliability, ease of use, field tested?!, etc goin through your head over and over


Hopefully its the next big thing.....realistically :roll: ......but hey threads like these are where the next big thing come from...regaurdless of the outboard there is need for a KAYAK powersource.....the evolve did this but the cost is way out of wack(worth the money but i could buy another island for that)(high power brushless motors and lithium batts are still cutting edge :mrgreen: $$$$)

Dear honda,
Please start manufacturing a 1.5hp mini two piece through scupper flange supported gas sipping aircooled kayak propped outboard...retail $599.99

Really i think all our problems would be solved with a fully sealed salt worthy micro generator......basically what i believe this invention to be just leave the trolling motor retrofit to the consumer.....micro generator/kayak pitched trolling motor prop package?.......covers more bases with inverter options for charging cell phones, bilge, airator, lights, Radios

-Jeff


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:38 pm 
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Bob,

Could you take a few pictures of your motor mount and motor attached please. I watched the video, but your motor and mount are not clearly visible to me.

Thank you,

Paul


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:24 pm 
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Paul:
My motor mount is very old (4 yrs), I built it when I got my first TI and my old Island Hopper outboard emergency backup motor. If you go back thru the thread The Ultimate Tandem Island (Hydrofoils, spinnaker, etc) viewtopic.php?f=69&t=33720 there should be a pretty good description (it's a really long thread)

The mount itself is just 1 1/2" PVC stuffed into the rod holders, I made a bridge over the top to keep the sail control line from de-capitating my wife while in the back seat).
Once I had the PVC frame made I drilled two 3/8 dia holes thru the sides about 2 inches apart and about 2 inches above the deck rail. I then took a 2x4 and drilled 7/16 holes in the end with the same hole spacing, but drilled so the board sits straight upright once installed in the boat. I then took two 3/8 dia steel rods and ran through the side holes and into the holes in the end of the board.
After everything was all fit up I stuffed newspaper above and below the rods inside the pvc tubing, then poured epoxy inside the pvc to set the steel rods into the PVC pipe. If you fill in and around the rods with newspaper it takes a lot less epoxy ( I'm sure Polyester resin (Bondo) would work just as well). On the motor mount board I used pressure treated lumber the second time after the first one (just regular pine) disintegrated after a few weeks. I used good marine epoxy to embed the rods into the board. Once this one wears out I will replace the mild steel rods with stainless steel rods because they rust like crazy in salt water. If you decide to use aluminum you will likely need 1/2" dia alum (3/8 dia would be too weak). It took an afternoon to make with just a hack saw and drill in my garage, the cost was maybe $10 dollars in materials.

The Honda 2.3hp motor is about a yr old and boy is it a really nice motor (way better and better built than my old Island hopper which finally rusted away). This Island hopper weighed 20 lbs, this one is 27 lbs I can't tell the difference. Actually I have never removed the motor since putting it on, I just store everything on the trailer in the garage.
Here are a couple pics
Image

Image

If you research you will see a bunch of threads about motor mounts on the forum (all way better than mine LOL)

The wound up rope is just 150 ft of anchor line spooled on what looks like a paper towel holder just to keep it out of the way.

Here is a pic of the motor mount without the motor.
Image

Next time I will use a 2x6 instead of a 2x4, because the motor is a little low.

Hope this helps
Bob


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:05 pm 
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Great setup Bob! Ive seen it in other threads but have never had the chance to say good job!

This is the point i bring up in my above post......that motor will live forever and im sure it pushes your fully rigged TI at mach speed on a few shots of gas :mrgreen:

Definitly my next mod

-Jeff


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:26 pm 
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Jeff:
That's the funny thing about my setup with that Honda, at low low idle of course the clutch on the prop disengages. But if you just crack the throttle enough to engage the clutch (like 1/8 throttle at most) with no sails up and the engine idling the TI goes 3-4 mph ( I do that to get out of the harbor). If I increase the power to a strong 4mph (about 1/4 throttle) then open the sails, the boat takes off like a banchee (6.5-10mph (faster in more wind)), and can go out all day for a buck in fuel (pretty incredible in my opinion). The only reason I run the motor at all is I just can't pedal fast enough without a second strong peddler to create the apparent wind needed to make my wing sail work. The motor isn't needed with 2 strong peddlers (well until they get tired anyway( LOL)). I probably have around 500 miles on that motor now. The only time I ever needed to run it at anything higher than 1/4 throttle was when I had to come in New Pass (in Sarasota bay) from the ocean against a 6mph current straight into the wind (didn't think that one thru beforehand), I think I was around 1/2 throttle, I have never tried to run it at full throttle except once just to see what it would do with no sails up ( motor only--about 8-9 mph).
Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:46 pm 
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Thats exactly what im looking for! All i would need after that mod is to fill my hull with high density foam making it unsinkable :mrgreen: :mrgreen: thanks Bob!

-Jeff


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:52 am 
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Jeff:
Too late, all of Hobies kayaks are already filled with foam flotation (flotation blocks) and can't sink.
When you get it all rigged we would all love to see video and pics.


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