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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:24 am 
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http://topkayaker.net/cgi-bin/TopYak/ul ... 3;t=000200

You might want to weigh in on this thread.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:53 am 
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Opinions are like ... everybody's got one. Here's mine:

Why don't we steer clear of the personal and focus on the capabilities of the boat, which have been called into question.

If you can bring experience to bear on the question of whether or not Hobie kayaks belong in Norcal beach launch situations, fire away - on the TopKayaker forum as well as here:

http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/bb/in ... pic=5985.0


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 Post subject: yikes
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:39 am 
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Location: sacramento california
That article was really hairy Dwest. :shock:
Without wanting to sound critical or demeaning in any way whatsoever, I can only wonder why one would ever even want to launch at Bean Hollow in the first place much less in big swells. There are plenty of other places along this stretch of coast that are no more than 30 minutes drive either direction which are not as technical and would be first on my list but then Im still just a landlocked rookie compared to the skill level of those guys I guess. :(
Image
A friend of mine and I went down the coast here one day looking for a new place to surf on the way to Santa Cruz. We stopped at Bean Hollow for 20 minutes to check the surf zone and decided against surfing it. It certainly is a senic spot of coast and there might be a few fish around but leak or no leak I personally would have thought twice about launching here. Then again I do not think I have enough experience yet to launch and then return safely back through the break to land at this kind of rough spot in large surf and maybe never will unless I move closer to the coast.
I also suppose if the boat had that big of a leak it might have swamped and sunk in the local water ski lake from boat wakes alone much less in heavy surf. At any rate Im happy that no one was seriously hurt and on the positive side its better they got into trouble soon after launch instead of five miles out to sea which could have been much worse and also leads me to think that this was a HUGE leak and might have just gotten worse than ever in the the rough conditions. A real good reminder for me to pre-check all my equipment before heading out and also to go out to sea in two's and three's :wink:
-kepnutz-

ps. When it comes to the ocean its always about R-E-S-P-E-C-T


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:12 pm 
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Location: Central Florida
I have 3 Hobie kayak models, including an Outfitter, and so have read every thread I know of regarding this incident. IMHO, this unforunate situation could have happened to any brand of kayak. It would seem undue attention is being directed to Hobie as it appears there are implications of faulty design, intrigue related to memos and letters by the manufacturer to dealers and irate responses to almost anyone who takes a position that differs from the author of the original thread or his buddies on a paricular forum. For this reason, I would not venture to respond on it......maybe misery likes company over there. I don't recall ever seeing certifications or advertising claiming Hobie kayaks were for extreme water sports or recommending them for offshore excursions and think those who do want to take the risks associated with such activities should not direct blame at the manufacturer. It is even more confounding when the operator acknowledges that the craft had a leak before he launched. But it seems some issues, like urban legends, never want to die. I for one think this issue should be retired.


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 Post subject: Bad spot use caution
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:29 pm 
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Location: sacramento california
This spot here is only 15 minutes from Bean Hollow. :o
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I would not recommend launching a kayak here on a big swell with any brand or model even with no leaks and an extra set of floaties on each arm :lol:
Image
I think there are some conditons out here which could always be beyond any brand's design spec :wink:
-Kepnutz-


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:48 am 
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kepnutz - beauty pics and points well taken.

The devil remains in the details - how do we apply those points to the discussion at hand?

1. Water/swell/wave/set/current/etc/ are limits on the conditions in which one should kayak.

How do we apply that to the discussion? Is the argument that no kayaking should have been done at Bean Hollow on the day in question?

2. Expertise and experience are limits on the conditions in which one should kayak.

How do we apply that to the discussion? Is the argument that no one should have been kayaking at Bean Hollow on the day in question?

My suggestion is that logic is a powerful and seductive tool devoid of wisdom, so we should be gentle with each other as we ease into trying to learn the lessons offered by this situation. Any conclusions that the boat was unsuitable, the kayaker was at fault, or anything else seem a bit premature and extreme to me. Let's take our time to join in learning from this incident and treat our hypotheses as just that for a while.

Maybe we have some trained and experienced water accident investigator types out there who can lead us through an analysis?

Thanks.

First person report and discussion:

http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/bb/in ... ic=5985.45

Discussions:

http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/ ... 3361054903

http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewt ... highlight=

http://topkayaker.net/cgi-bin/TopYakcgi ... 000200;p=0


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:03 am 
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dwest,

Your intentions appear to be honorable and you keep referring to facts over emotion or opinion in reaching conclusions. The problem here is that we don't have the FACTS needed to render sensible conclusions. Nor are most of us experts in accident investigations. I would venture to guess the experts would steer clear of expressing opinions on these types of forums. What if limits of usage were listed or clearly written in instructions?? Would we read and heed them? How often do we read or reread our kayak documentation? Regarding addressing limits of activty in relation to conditions, refer to stories of people venturing out on thin ice despite posted warnings; stories surfacing regarding the Mt. Hood tragedy and the climbers equipment and clothing; watercraft taken out despite small-craft advisories; persons taking inappropriate craft in white-water situations---including pontoons and SOT kayaks. My point is that people will justify their actions and respond angrily to those who question their sensibility in taking such risks. Those who overcome the adversity become renowned daredevils. Those who fail are recognized at the fools they probably are. Which label applies to the person or persons in this incident----I'll let you be the judge without a jury as the jury will surely remain divided no matter how long this discussion remains active.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:36 am 
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Great observations.

So let's press for more facts if they are lacking. Listing what facts seem missing or necessary would be good contributions.

And let's not worry about getting universal agreement, or about those who are satisfied with a fools-or-heroes level of analysis.

Here is another kayak rescue incident to compare and contrast:

http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/ ... 8401063332

http://www.nspn.org/htdocs/dcforum/DCForumID5/451.html

I salute the kayakers involved in both incidents for sharing the candid details and for doing the right things to survive. Good job, guys.

Let’s respectfully review both incidents for their lessons on what to do and what to avoid, without leaping to critical judgment. Yes, you might have done something different, but what would you do if you involuntarily find yourself or someone you love in these situations? Stuff happens fast on the water, let’s figure out the lessons offered by these incidents on how best to be prepared and react.

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:16 am 
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Location: sacramento california
Hey Dw.. :)
I was just having a bit of fun with my prevoius post there. :wink:
It sounds like everyone has stirred this pot up already for the last several weeks on all the sites you listed and come to many different opinions like you said. I just got on board this topic yesterday. :oops: Im just glad no one got hurt and will try to learn what I can from the event and subsequent posts and apply it to my own situations as much as possible without over analyzing things. (thats what works best for me.)
Happy Hollydaze
-Kepnutz-


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:06 am 
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Ouch.

I am trying to be a thoughtful student of kayaking in part because, while my time on the water has been frequent for decades, my kayak experience is limited. I’m primarily a fisherman with enthusiastic interest in, and a little experience with, kayaking.

For whatever it is worth:

I grew up minutes from the water and began running away to fish at age 7 to my mom’s disgust. I began building rafts, canoes, and anything else I could afford from grade school on. All freshwater except a few trips to the ocean and one freebie to Acapulco. Spin, fly, and baitcasting for every freshwater species I thought I could catch.

During high school more of the same I did scuba and free diving in fresh and saltwater for fun, a couple abalone, and in a program to collect specimens for the Smithsonian, primarily nudibranchs. That program also included rotenone sampling tidepools from Morrow Bay to the Oregon border.

In college in New England I helped build and repair a few fiberglass whitewater SINK kayaks, bashed them down spring melt streams, and worked on safety crews during whitewater kayak competitions. I rowed crew for a couple years, and haunted the Connecticut River in various small rowboats, sailboats, and canoes to fish, sail, explore, and just get away from it all.

College dropout for a couple years. Bought a canoe and fished and camped along the rivers and in the lakes of Northern California and the Central Sierras. Some shore fishing in the saltwaters of Northern California, but mostly freshwater.

Back to college. More canoeing, a little SINK kayaking, small boat sailing, and lots of freshwater fishing. Put together and led a week-long canoe trip through the Everglades one Spring Break.

During grad school not much time or money, but did a little canoeing and fishing in Northern California. Much more of the same after joined the work force. Got into club level tournament bass fishing for a decade and a half. Some saltwater crabbing and fishing from small boats. A couple of rental SINK whitewater kayak adventures. Hiking streams and rivers to fish, and lots of fishing freshwater from small boats.

[Addition: Also tie flies; shared a tiny business making spinnerbaits, buzzbaits, jigs, and re-packaging for sale bulk terminal tackle; and recently got stuff to wire bend and make salmon spinners, etc.; wrapped a 3 weight fly rod along the way.]

Back injury and surgery. Sold the canoe. On the beach for a few years. Fishing with friends in small boats, primarily freshwater with a little saltwater in Northern and Southern California.

Back injury healed well and with exercise ready for another canoe – but got intrigued with the Hobie Adventure instead. Stumbled into online kayak forums for the first time. One Newport Harbor area fishing trip with some Hobie pro staffers and I bought an Adventure, a new wetsuit, kayak gear, etc. [Correction: bought the Adventure a few weeks before the Newport trip for a saltwater intro.] Began freshwater kayak fishing in Northern California.

Sold the kayak when the Adventure Island was announced. Finances put new kayak on hold ($3K!) just as I also got intrigued with salmon fishing in the Mokelumne and Sacramento rivers. Put my limited money and time into salmon fishing from friends’ small powerboats. I post my fishing stuff on powerboat forums, with a very few references in kayak forums, because I am not kayak fishing right now. But I have been and will be again soon, so I want to be as well prepared as I can.

I saw the NorCal Outfitter leak incident threads that seemed excessively negative about Hobie and others about the same incident that seemed excessively negative about the kayakers involved. I am not qualified to say much about it so, basically, I made comments on what others posted and asked questions in the various threads to see if more balance could be brought to the discussion as a whole. You can read the threads and form your own opinion about how it is going and what my role has been.

So this is my modus operandi: try to figure out where I am ignorant, pose questions, study the answers, pose follow-up questions, and offer whatever I can along the way – including finding and sharing links to what seems pertinent and interesting stuff along the way. I think we are all seekers along the path, sometimes a little ahead and sometimes a little behind of others, and all we can do is try to honestly, respectfully, report the view from wherever we find ourselves and ask others to do the same.

So, credibility? Well, my understanding is that credibility is a good question if someone claims subject matter expertise or asks to be believed when reporting on facts not witnessed by others. In the Bean Hollow discussion I don’t think either applies to me.

Motivation? To clearly understand the lessons offered by the facts of the incident.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:28 pm 
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I suppose there is little chance a person entrenched in an extreme position about another will readily give it up, so perhaps it makes little sense to point out:

1. I have never “slammedâ€


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 Post subject: Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:14 pm 
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Location: Oceanside, California
Admin note:

I have deleted several of the posts here in this thread that were edited to zero content by the poster. I have also deleted one other post that was simply inflammatory. I normally do not direct the content of posting in any way, but feel that this one was going in an unhelpful direction in many ways.

I think this is a good point of discussion. There are always going to be limitations or advantages of one model or design over another. Conditions, users and skill levels vary so greatly... there is no perfect boat in the World.

I think dwest has had some good thinking here and I take it as an opening for constructive discussion and not as being against Hobie Kayaks in any way.

I personally had addressed many of the questions raised in the norcal forum and others related to the original posted story.

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Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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