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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:36 pm 
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I have a couple of traditional sit on top kayaks, however, I am considering a Hobie kayak with the Mirage Drive. Never being in a Hobie kayak I have a question regarding the efficiency of paddling one and was hoping I could get some opinions. I don't want to completely give up paddling, so I was wondering how hard it is to paddle with the proper technique in these kayaks. Typically, in a traditional kayak I need a very upright seated position to properly use my torso to efficiently pull the paddle through the water. When looking at the Hobie kayaks it appears your seated position is very reclined, which may be efficient for pedaling, but how does this work when you put a paddle to the water?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:18 pm 
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The Revolution and Adventure paddle as well as any sit on top kayak I think. I've spent a lot of time in the revolution and in the Tarpon 14 and tarpon 12 and think the revo is just as good. I go position my seat more upright when paddling versus peddling.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:39 pm 
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Flaneur:

Welcome to the forum!

I agree with Brad at Sunjammers, they paddle well. My little fleet consists of the Tarpon 160 and two Hobie Revolutions.

While you'll find that the vast majority of Hobie Mirage owners simply pedal, hang in here for a few minutes and you'll know why some folks actually like paddling these unique craft so much. It all boils down to one word -- adapting ... to the situation. Well, OK, 4 words.

My typical run involves one mile paddling the Revo at about 3.4 to 3.6 mph GPS, then pedaling back one mile at about 3.6 to 3.8 mph GPS. I swing a mid-range ($189) paddle -- the 230 cm, 30 oz carbon fiber Seven2, feathered to about 45 degrees. For leg propulsion I like the quick cadence of the Standard fins when I haven't been out on the water in a few days, but after a couple days of that I'll reach for the ST fins to push more water.

The Revo seat has two positions fore and aft, plus the seatback angle is fully adjustable -- you can adjust it so you are sitting perfectly upright. I find the seat to be a tad higher than in my beloved Tarpon 160, which gives me a little better "purchase" with the paddle. Some might prefer the flat footwells and footpegs of the Tarpon over the scalloped footwells of the Revo -- it's a matter of personal taste. I do get more leg power behind my paddling using the Tarpon, and hence better torso rotation, but other features of the Revo outweigh this for most of my purposes.

The paddling performance of the Revo has a lot to do with the configuration you are in with respect to the Mirage drive and the rudder.

1. Fins pointing down, rudder deployed -- the Revo tracks real TIGHT, like it's on rails for crying out loud! Basically great for going super straight. There is slight paddling (forward) resistance created by the leading edge of the fins. Not enough to notice much unless you focus on it. The sideways resistance of the fins in the down position is massive -- of course -- and it does limit your ability to steer using paddle strokes. Hey, I said you'd go really straight! To turn the boat in this configuration, just fold the fins up against the underside of the hull, then apply your corrective paddle strokes, then put the fins back down and resume your course. You can also steer using your left hand on the rudder tiller, but that requires taking your hand off the paddle which breaks your paddling cadence. I use homemade foot-controls for the rudder to avoid this issue completely when paddling for long periods.

2. Fins folded flat against the hull, rudder deployed -- again a little bit of paddling resistance from the leading edge of the fins, but looser tracking than #1 above. The upside is the ability to steer using paddle strokes, and getting around in shallow water with the fins up. Here the Revo handles like a good SOT of comparable dimensions, such as the Hobie Quest.

3. Mirage drive removed and replaced with the drive plug, rudder deployed -- this eliminates the slight paddling resistance caused by the fins. Tracking is a bit looser than #2 above. This is a good approach if you don't plan on pedaling at all during a trip and want to get the best upper body workout possible. Now if you retract the rudder you have the loosest tracking of all, but a superb platform in this configuration for getting into and out of really tight spots!

4. Replacing the stock rudder with the Sailing rudder -- wow, what can I say, this upgrade is practically a no-brainer! Improved tracking and tight steering. The Sailing Rudder is invaluable in handling strong currents or stiff wind.

I have never been in a Hobie Adventure, but I'm sure it would paddle well and most of the observations above should apply to it too.

One other thing -- I use thigh braces on the Tarpon and really enjoy the feeling they give me of being "one with the boat". Have not yet installed them on the Revo. Maybe someone else has, and can chime in.

Nothing beats your opinion, though, so I hope you can borrow or demo a Revo or Adventure, then give us your thoughts.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:12 pm 
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conservation101 wrote:
Flaneur:

Nothing beats your opinion, though, so I hope you can borrow or demo a Revo or Adventure, then give us your thoughts.


Welcome Flaneur,
Conservation101 has detailed clearly the great versatility of the Hobie Mirage kayaks (great report C101 BTW :))
The ability to sail adds to that versatility.
Armed with this info you should demo the models if at all possible. I agree with C101 -nothing beats 'try before you buy'. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:26 pm 
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Thanks for all of the great information. The opinions hit home even more since my primary boat I paddle is the Tarpon 140. So I was able to relate a lot to what everyone is saying. I didn't realize the seats were so adjustable. From the pictures it appears that the seat bottom is quite tilted, but maybe that's an illusion.

Still I agree, the best advice is to demo a boat and see for myself. I know of a few dealers in the area, but only one that has water next to their shop for demos and it's an hour drive. I'm trying to hold off until I have space to store an Adventure, but that may be another year. I only have space for 14 feet of kayak currently. But I still want to get out there and demo one of these in the near future.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:32 pm 
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conservation101 wrote:
Flaneur:

My typical run involves one mile paddling the Revo at about 3.4 to 3.6 mph GPS, then pedaling back one mile at about 3.6 to 3.8 mph GPS.


I see you're only averaging 0.2 mph faster peddling. Are you putting forth less effort, or is this a reasonable difference in speed given similar effort? I always thought the peddling would be at least a mph faster given similar effort to paddling, but is the only real advantage that you don't have that time of non-propulsion between each paddle stroke?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:39 pm 
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Flaneur:

I feel that the average speed I can sustain comfortably while pedaling is about .2 to .4 mph faster than that of paddling. This is a very subjective assessment with many variables at work. The best opinion is the one you form, which is why it is vital to demo and assess the difference for yourself.

Now if you are talking range, for me there is a big difference between pedaling and paddling, while still arriving relatively fresh at my destination.

I've never done a comparison test, but I feel I can easily double or triple my range by pedaling. Then again, I'm just an average paddler, and I used to bicycle a lot.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:07 pm 
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Flaneur, welcome to the forum.

With the Adventure, I easily sustain about a 1 - 1 1/4 mph faster speed pedaling than paddling. Lacking any technique in either though, the pedaling seems to suffer less.

C101 makes a great point that range is a big differentiator. It's easy to pedal along without stopping to grab a drink or take a rest. I like to paddle for the exercise (usually when no-one is looking) but for speed, acceleration, range (or photography), the paddle gets put away. 8)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:45 pm 
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conservation101 wrote:
Flaneur:

Now if you are talking range, for me there is a big difference between pedaling and paddling, while still arriving relatively fresh at my destination.


This is one of the great benefits of the Mirage drive.
On our trips with friends in paddle only kayaks that are longer and narrower and therefore glide better than ours (a Tandem) we have noticed that they start out faster but that speed can't be maintained by people of average fitness.
As an example friends have a tandem Mirage (not to be confused with the Mirage drive) sea kayak probably one of the fastest kayaks around. We are all of similar fitness levels. At the start of the day they can average about 9km/h as opposed to our 7km/h. As the trip progresses their average speed drops. After about 20 km they slow right down stopping for rests, whereas we are still doing 7km/h. We are usually the first back in the group and feel as if we could do it all again whereas as our friends are showing obvious signs of fatigue. If we happen to be returning in a headwind the difference is even greater. :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:52 am 
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I appreciate all of the insights. They all make a lot of sense and make the benefits of the mirage drive sound quite superior especially since you can combine it with paddling. One thing I didn't even think of, as Roadrunner mentioned, was the easier nature of photography. I enjoy taking my camera along, and this would make taking a photo much easier.

Also, one of the reasons I began looking at this was because of a suffer fest of a trip I took last week paddling my Tarpon 140. I paddled around 26 miles last weekend, of which over half of the last 9.5 were mostly going directly into 20+ mph headwinds in the open gulf near Everglades City, FL in the Ten Thousand Islands area. I had a fully loaded kayak and the tide wasn't in my favor for the most part. It was tough to average over 0.5 mph for long sections. So needless to say I was quite exhausted. Having the mirage drive, as people are mentioning here would have significantly reduced my fatigue level and made the trip much more enjoyable.

The only problem I see is if I get one boat with mirage drive, then I've got to get two. My wife will want to use it when she occasionally paddles with me, and I won't want to give it up!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:49 am 
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flaneur wrote:
The only problem I see is if I get one boat with mirage drive, then I've got to get two. My wife will want to use it when she occasionally paddles with me, and I won't want to give it up!

Not a problem -- just get a tow line! :wink:
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:18 pm 
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Here is another small advantage that doesn't get mentioned. I went out a few weekends ago and was fighting some 20-30 mph winds. When you are pedalling, you can just loosen up the seat straps and lean back. It makes a much more streamlined shape cutting through the wind. I didn't have a current to deal with but a lot of wind, and some 1 to 2' waves, and made really nice headway. I just trolled a line on the way up, and when I got to the end of the lake, let the wind push me back as I cast down the shoreline. It made what could have been a miserable day just peaceful.

I did note to myself when I was pedalling that it was basically like sitting on a lazy boy.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:57 pm 
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Since people suggested I demo some boats to get my own opinion, I thought I'd give a little feedback for what it's worth. I attended a kayak festival where they had a Hobie rep in the West Palm Beach area today. I tried the Outback, Revolution, and Adventure. I also tried the adventure with the turbo fins in place.

To answer my primary question from the first post, yes paddling these boats is fine without the mirage drive. I didn't have the trouble with the seating position that I expected. I was able to adjust the back rest accordingly. However, I still didn't feel quite as connected to the boat as I do in my Tarpon 140. I think this has to do with the attached seat versus the built in seat. But nonetheless it wasn't much of an issue. Now paddling with the mirage drive in place wasn't that great. It was hard to find a place for my feet, and the mirage drive was just in the way in general. Although, it could be done, it just wasn't as seamless as I had hoped. Also, another thing that I was disappointed with was that it is completely impossible to paddle while peddling at the same time. This probably isn't a big deal for most, and not that big of a deal for me either, but it would have been nice.

Also, I was pretty disappointed in the effort required to peddle versus paddling. I've done a lot of strenuous paddling over long distances, and I do consider myself a pretty efficient paddler. With that said, when I was paddling at a pace that I felt I could steadily maintain for an hour, similar effort with the peddles resulted in close to the same speed. I didn't have all day to test, but it seemed pretty close. By the way, if you were wondering I did bring my GPS on all of my tests paddles. Now when I tried the turbo fins this was quite different. I was able to average close to 1 mph faster peddling versus paddling.

They're definitely advantages of the mirage drive. It would be nice to have the steady pull of the fins when going into the wind or a current. It's not an issue in calm conditions, but I can see how it would help. Also, it'd be nice to be able to alternate between peddling and paddling. However, overall I didn't feel that they provided enough improvement in the experience to justify another $1000+ boat when I already have a couple boats. Even if I didn't have a boat, I don't know if I would get one if they didn't have the option to upgrade to the turbo fins.

With that said, there was one boat I tried that left my with a huge grin that I think I'll eventually get as soon as I move and have enough storage. It was a breezy day and I had a lot fun on the Adventure Island. I was concerned a bit about the lack of speed (in my opinion) that I had read on these posts. However, I did catch a gust that got me up to 7 mph. I must say that anything over 3 mph feels a lot faster which makes it more fun even if you're not doing double digit speeds.

My quick general opinion about the 3 boats I tried:

Outback - Didn't feel like a kayak and I didn't really like it for my purposes. You sit pretty high and it feels like a barge. However, I think it would serve well as a fishing kayak. It seemed pretty inefficient through the water.

Revolution - A nice all around boat that seemed decently efficient for a near 14 foot sit on top. Probably an excellent all around boat for most people.

Adventure - Faster and smoother than the Revolution. I liked it a lot, especially when I tried it with the turbo fins, but it my be a little lengthy for most people looking for a sit on top.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:10 pm 
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Flaneur, thanks for sharing your your demonstration experience. You obviously took a lot of time and effort to examine the different boats; I thought your assessment was very well done.

Of course, I'm sorry to hear you didn't become an instant Hobie fan! It could be that some people are more comfortable using their upper bodies and others get more gratification using their lower bodies.

In any event, you're a great example of why it's always good to have a demonstration first if possible. Everybody has to find what works best for them. Watch out -- that Island can be very contageous! 8)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:07 am 
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flaneur wrote:
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Now paddling with the mirage drive in place wasn't that great. It was hard to find a place for my feet, and the mirage drive was just in the way in general.


That was also what I USED to think. However, if you learn to coordinate your pedal stroke with the position of your paddle shaft, it all falls nicely into place, as you will note in the below pic.

I noticed some time ago that with a normal setting of the Mirage drive for my height, my knees were just about at chest level when both pedals were aligned side by side (flippers fully extended). Thus, when pedaling, I kept banging my knees with the paddle on one side or the other, and it never felt quite right doing both simultaneously. However, if you coordinate your paddle stroke with your Mirage drive stroke, then it all works quite nicely. You do this by extending, for example, your right leg on the Mirage drive pedal. This brings your right knee down to just above waist level. Then, and only then, you perform a starboard sweep stroke with your paddle. This allows your starboard paddle stroke to clear your knee nicely. Ditto for the left knee and the port paddle power stroke.

Just a few times doing this alternately on each side will get your upper body in sync with your lower body, and you will be amazed at how smooth your simultaneous paddling/pedaling strokes will become. If you do get out of sync (and you will occasionally), just start over with either the port or starboard paddle stroke, and you will quickly be back up and running. In the below pic, note that my right leg is almost fully extended on the pedal throw, while my paddle shaft is angled down to the right for a simultaneous starboard power stroke with the paddle. Note also that my paddle shaft clears my right knee by several inches at this time. Try it, I think you'll like it.

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