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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:12 pm 
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Hey Tad,

Did you say a 1985 boat?

If it is it would have been made by Coleman and could be a "red foam" boat, Ok?

Please verify this by several method ... look closely at the 'Lip", is there a thin red line in the middle or look inside the hulls at the seam between the top deck and bottom hull, is there excess red foam squeezed out???? (You'll need a "hand" mirror and a flashlight)

This means you have one of lightest series of H18's built ... most like 390-400lbs

And there are a few things you can easily do to it to help it have a longer life

So check that out for me and we'll see what's what

Harry

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:38 pm 
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Harry,

Yes, it is a 1985. The boat is definitely made by Coleman. It has a decal on each hull that says so. The hulls do seem pretty light. I was able to lift each of the hulls and carry them into the backyard without much trouble at all & I was suprised at how light they were when they were off the boat. None of the repairs have gotten into the foam....only fiberglass, so I don't know what color the foam is...I will see if I can find this red color you are talking about when it is light out tomorrow. I will try to weigh the hulls tomorrow too, just to see how much they weigh before the repairs. Jeremy from Surf City Catamaran has been helping me with advice for the repair via e-mail and he is supplying materials and some new parts as well. He has been super helpful so far!

Have a great night!
--Tad

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:09 am 
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Tad,

Jeremy is a GREAT guy!!!! I've never met the man, but in the catamaran world he is one of the best!!!!!

Looking at your pic's I can tell you do not have the SS reinforcements at your front crossbar ... they are identical to the ones at the shroud attachment point as a reference. Jeremy is fimiliar w/ this "factory" recommened fix/up-grade that was done on all post 84" production H18's. You'll need (4) of the SS Reinforcements. And you'll need to install some Epoxy/fiberglass reinforcements inside the hulls at the front cradle area. I also reinforced the shroud anchor bolts area to the front crossbar also by appling fiberglass cloth over the joint between the "Deck" and hull" This work is not hard and doesn't take long especially since you are doing the other repairs.

I know about this because my boat has late 84' Serial Numbers, was produced by Coleman BUT it has 87' Replacement Hulls on it provided under Warrenty by the "Factory". Lets say your attention gets "focus" when you watch your Port Bow fold inward and your hulls fill w/ water. Now my friend has a 86' w/ origonal hulls that we reinforced and the boat is fine .... in fact at the 2007 H-18NA's the boat wieghed in at (after the reinforcements) at 401lbs!!!!!!!! Only 1lb over minimum!!!!! the lightest boat there!!!!!!! GREAT!!!!!!!! (my boat wieghed in at 424lbs so they made the replacement hulls a little stronger/heavier)

So your hulls are valuable .... but delicate ... becareful if you have a 7X1 Mainsheet stack as you can oversheet the main and cause the bows to "tow in". You may wish to site the leech and mark the "Max" sheet tension on the mainsheet line for safety and performence. In your hulls case ... tighter is not always better as you can easily be oversheeted. Ok???

Oh, one of the repairs I had to make to my friends boat was to the hull bottoms under the shrouds where the boat sat on the beach wheels .... w/ the sails up and no cradles on the beach wheels (at the time) the boat was bouncing and caused "spider" fractures in the hull. So maybe you want to put 3 or 4 layers of cloth inside the hulls and ....

CRADLE ...CRADLES ... CRADLES on the beach wheels for sure!!!!!!! Bunks 9on the trailer) made of 2X8's will be fine (nothing smaller) as they will provide enough surface/contact area or cradles.

But becareful though if boats are allowed to sit in wet bunks/cradles you can cause "gelcoat" blisters ... hence the "Cheap" Nylon Carpet and Styrene Padding that will not retain water ... AstroTurf!!!!!!

Got to run to the Yacht Club to cut grass

Talk to ya later
Harry

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:46 am 
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Harry,

The boat is a "redline" boat! I took some photos of the seam you were describing & there is a red line in between the two layers. Here are some close up photos of the seam.

Image

Image

Image

It is raining here today, so no work on the boat today. I have it covered with a tarp to protect some of the work I did on it yesterday and to keep it dry. I told my wife about the plan to put PVC pipe in the oven. Ha! She is very understanding...but also thinks I am a bit crazy when it comes to this boat! :)

Mainsheet stack is 7:1. I will need to talk to you more about how to "site the leech". How do I know when the leech is at the max tension? I will have to mark the mainsheet with this setting once the boat is all back together & back on the water so I don't get the leech too tight. I have a list going of things to do & will add this to it.

Also, I forwarded the portion of your last post to Jeremy about the SS reinforcement for the front crossbar so he can add the parts I need to the order.

Have a great weekend!
--Tad

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:48 pm 
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Little break in the weather. Long enough to weigh the hulls today.

Image
Weight of port hull is about 93-94 lbs.


Image
Weight of starboard hull is about 96 lbs.

Still have the tramp track on & the Jib Sheet Blocks on, so they add a little weight.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:02 pm 
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Hi Tad,

Yep you got a "red foam" hulls for sure!!!!!! If I had the $$$$$'s and was looking for another H18 for racing .... yours would be it!!!!

Now that you know that you have "red foam" you will be able to "treat" your boat so that it last for a looooong time yet.

You see that "middle" picture you posted ..... which hull is that pic from and it's location???? ..... see that little "hairline" crack????????

We will need to address that ... look closely for additional "cracks at other crossbar cradles

Now, I've repaired maybe as many as 4-5 "red foam" H18's over the years, so what "issues" your hulls have are easily repaired, Ok? If you can work in the evenings it will take you 1-2 weeks. The biggest time issue will be the 2-4 days that you will need wait between Epoxy/Fiberglass for the "Amine Blush" chemical reaction to occur. The reaction time depends on UV/Sun exposure and temp .... more sunshine the faster the reaction occurs and temp helps to

Now to "work" inside the hulls get your self some "shoplights" and I had mirrors made of 6"X6" and used 2X6's to make stands by cutting a 15* angle slot in the 2X6 to hold the mirrors ..... simple .... maybe you should measure the max opening of the hullport (I had my "hullport rings" out when I worked on my boat ... it made it so I could reach inside further w/ these large manly biceps of mine. Hahahaha...... (the manly bicep part)

Got to get back to work .... isn't WIFI at the RC nice .... and the cold draft beer????

Harry

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:19 am 
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Quote:
Mainsheet stack is 7:1. I will need to talk to you more about how to "site the leech". How do I know when the leech is at the max tension? I will have to mark the mainsheet with this setting once the boat is all back together & back on the water so I don't get the leech too tight.


I assume he is talking about rigging the boat on land, standing behind it and sighting up the leech. Pull the mainsheet in until the leech is in a straight line (perfectly in line with the mast).

Unfortunately, this setting has very little bearing on what your sheet tension actually needs to be on the water. Once you're on the water, the loads in the sail vary considerably with windspeed, and you have to adjust your mainsheet tension accordingly. For example, the max upwind mainsheet tension that you need in 5 knots is a LOT less than what you need in 20 knots. So that little mark you put on your mainsheet is likely going to give you bad information the majority of the time.

As the windspeed increases, the leech wants to fall off the centerline and so you need to crank in on the mainsheet if you want to go upwind. Pulling on more mainsheet tension (in conjunction with increased downhaul tension) also flattens the sail, so in higher wind, more mainsheet tension actually helps settle the boat down. Also, variations in the downhaul tension affect the required mainsheet tension. As the downhaul is made tighter, the mast bends and this causes the leech to fall off, again requiring the mainsheet to be brought in farther.

The best way to determine what your mainsheet tension should be is to install tell-tails on your sail, particularly in the upper panels. I recommend one set each in the second and third panels from the top. These will tell you very clearly if you are under or over sheeted.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:16 am 
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Just to clear up a bit of a misconception in this thread.

The boats built during this period are commonly referred to as red LINE boats, not red foam boats.

The reason they are referred to as red line boats is that the factory switched to a glue that was red in color when they were gluing the hulls together.

That resulted in a "red line" in the lip where the top of the hull was glued to the bottom of the hull.

This unique variation is well illustrated by the pictures included in this thread.

The "foam" is not red !

On the downside, these boats while light tend to be prone to breaking at the front crossbar.

There is a procedure you can perform on the boat to reinforce that area and is well described elsewhere in this forum by Matt Miller.

Having experienced this failure on my 1988 H-18, I would recommend searching out said postings and taking the time to do the "preventative maintenance" .

Stephen

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:19 pm 
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Stephen,

I also have a 1988 boat but I was under the impression that Hobie had addressed the problem with the weak hulls at the front crossbar by then. Was Coleman still making the boats in 1988? I went ahead and did the mods several years ago just for piece of mind but in my case, I was hoping that I had one of the stronger (heavier) boats. Is there a sure fire way to tell what production era my boat is from?

Thanks,

Tom
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:05 pm 
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Look for the "Red Line/Red Foam". My replacement hulls where 87-88 production and by that time they had stopped using the "red foam/glue/muck/????? What ever the hell it was. And the hulls were slightly heavier. In my experience the "Stars & Stripes" boats were the heaviest .... maybe 435lbs .... w/ the red line/foam wieghing between 390-395lbs usually.

It was a noticable difference ......


Now here's the issue and why I say "mark the Mainsheet line" .... with a 7X1 mainsheet stack + adrenalin + Red line/Foam = Towed in Bows. My "personal experience it that I oversheet the main little by little ... and the bows tow in a little more and more ... and you can find yourself "block to block" ... wripples develope in the hulls on the insde just in front of the front crossbar ... oversheet some more times .... and the bow folds inward ..... and your day is pretty much ruined at that point

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:17 pm 
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Dang it ... somhow I submitted that before I had finished my point


.... so I like to have a "reference" point kind of a "red line" on a Tach in a race car ..... you may choose to push it a liitle more ....

my tactic is to not to try to add more sheet tension but to "foot" slightly and run, run, run ..... note that footing seems to work for Mr Jim Sohn and many other champions who do not pinch to winning, but "foot" their way to winning .... I do believe that you Mr Cooley have given me such a lesson in several races personally .... HAhahahaaaaaaaa.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:41 pm 
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Who said anything about pinching? The mainsheet needs to come in as the wind comes up in order to flatten the sail as well as to compensate for the leech falling off due to increased pressure in the sail and increased mast bend. Your upper telltails as well as the angle of heel will tell you all of this.

If you're worried about your bow folding in, you probably shouldn't be sailing the boat in any wind until you get the problem fixed.

BTW, if you accidentially do an early submit, you can just go down to the edit button and finish your comment.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:26 pm 
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So while I am waiting for boat materials & parts, I decided to do some work to the trailer so that it is in tip-top shape and looking good when the boat is finished. I took the trailer apart, wire brushed all the rust off this weekend. Just finished spraying the last coat of paint tonight. It turned out pretty nice. I repainted the axle and springs too. Here's some photos:

Image
Trailer with all accessories removed...including axle & springs.

Image
The hinge mechanism made it easier to get under the trailer for painting the underside.

Image
Axle & Spring, Looking Shiny & New again!

Image
Self-Portrait | Respirator is a good idea when spraying!

Oh yea, I moved the front crossbar forward. I could only get about 1' from it's original location due to the front portion of the trailer, but it should help the boat not be so cantilevered. Thinking of building bunks or cradles...depends if I find large enough diameter pvc pipe. I have PT wood for bunks, but I think cradles would look nicer. Picked up some styrene padding and nylon astroturf this weekend. I've got some time to get them built since the boat is on sawhorses for a while :). I figured out a way to use the roller supports to mount the bunks/cradles. I'll send photos when I have them done.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:49 pm 
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Tad,

I just used "carrage" bolts through the double stacked 2X8s and crossbar. Make sure to "sink" the bolt heads ... cover w/ styrene and carpet.

Trailer lights???? What you got???

I use "Sealed Beam Tractor Trailer" lights like those made by "GROTO" availible at Northern Equip, NAPA and other Automotive Suppy Stores.

I took the time to solder all the connections .... never had any problem in a long time maybe 10yrs or more

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:05 pm 
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Hey Tad,

I got to studing your pics .... nice job on the trailer ....

My trailer started out like yours with the crossbars slung below the trailer frame, but for several reasons including "hooking" and bending the crossbar several times I moved the crossbar to be on top of the trailer frame. It also make installing a long trailer box easier at some future date.

And every proper trailer should have "mudflaps" .... actually I had a leaky axle that had a groove worn in it and no matter what I did it would leak a little wheel bearing grease on long trips .... and get on the boat .... so the mudflaps. And they do keep the boat much cleaner and keep "debris" from flying up and chipping/dinging the hulls.



And NO I didn't put those SS Reclining Female Outline .....

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