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 Post subject: So what is faster?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:31 am 
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Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:38 pm
Posts: 13
Location: Seattle
A Hobie 18 with wings or without?

Regards,

Greg AKA Zubie


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 Post subject: Re: So what is faster?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:35 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:55 am
Posts: 356
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
IT depends, do you mean around a race course or top speed?

Simple answer:
Race course: without wings
Top end: with wings

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1992 Hobie Cat 18 #16943
Hobie Fleet 198, Rapid City, SD


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 Post subject: Re: So what is faster?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:42 am 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
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Location: Jersey Shore
Whichever one is being sailed by the better crew...

There is really no significant speed difference between the two configurations. The wings add about 15% more righting moment (only if you're double trapped off of them), but they also increase the boat weight by about 10% and they can drag if you fly the hull too high, so the speed difference is nil.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: So what is faster?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:06 pm
Posts: 610
Location: SE PA/ Chesapeak Bay
Tom and SRM are quite correct in IMO ...

The biggest advantage on a H18 w/ wings over w/o wings .... is comfort ===> energy savings ....

When doing distance races "magnum wings" save the crew's energy by not having to trap-out for long periods of time vs sitting comfortably on the wing ... and if you are trapped-out off the wings you are above the waves... spray ... etc, and are usually DRY!!!

Now, my experience in bouy races/short course is that Magnum Wings add too much wieght to the boat ... and when trapped-out from the wings to do any kind of tack/jybe just takes you too long to organize/execute .... you just don't have the longer distances to make-up the time lost in the manuvers ....

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HarryMurphey
H-18 mag/ #9458
Fleet 54 Div 11


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 Post subject: Re: So what is faster?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:14 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2003 7:14 pm
Posts: 455
Location: West MI
All three of you are correct.(IMO) I sail with wings, race without, especially around the bouys. As my boat is usually on the beach, it has the wings on it. How to remove the wings and leave the wing tabs on without getting cut on or by them while racing.

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DVL 1989 H-18 Worlds Boat, Magnum Wings & Spinnaker

dale.vanlopik"at"att"dot"net


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 Post subject: Re: So what is faster?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:51 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:24 pm
Posts: 110
Location: Todd Mission, Texas
DVL wrote:
How to remove the wings and leave the wing tabs on without getting cut on or by them while racing.

Try covering the tabs with a piece of appropriately sized automotive radiator or fuel hose.

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Jeff
1986 Hobie 18 #13031


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 Post subject: Re: So what is faster?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:50 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:32 am
Posts: 257
Golf balls.

I was a wing die-hard... but now think I prefer sailing w/o...

Boat feels more nimble and quick w/o wings... because I'm ON the boat, not ON the wings...and it's more fun being a "trap-monkey" in-out... front-back... etc than just sitting on the wing.

But for camping/cruising to the islands (Horn, Ship, etc off Miss. coast...) wings are very nice... and when the hulls are full of tents and sleeping bags it's hard to put your fishing poles in the hull, so strapping under the wings is nice.

Then you can mount a small lawn chair at the stern end of the wing too (those long SX wings..). And if you mount it facing to the rear, it's great for trolling.

Ok ok... that's a bit much.

Anyway, back to golf balls... when my wings are off I put a drilled golf ball on the wing pivot studs (protruding from the crossbars)... and more down onto the wing tabs. A blunt round object.

Happy sailing,
Rob.


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 Post subject: Re: So what is faster?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:43 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:10 am
Posts: 408
Location: Black Hills South Dakota
I love trapping off the wings.

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Bodhisatfa


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 Post subject: Re: So what is faster?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:22 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2003 7:14 pm
Posts: 455
Location: West MI
I must be getting old. :cry: I love my wings.

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DVL 1989 H-18 Worlds Boat, Magnum Wings & Spinnaker

dale.vanlopik"at"att"dot"net


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 Post subject: Re: So what is faster?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:17 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:10 am
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Location: Black Hills South Dakota
Also flat out not on a race course the magnum is faster.

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Bodhisatfa


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 Post subject: Re: So what is faster?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:14 am 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
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Location: Jersey Shore
Theoretically, the wings might make the boat a fraction faster in flat water upwind or on a close reach (I'd expect nothing more than maybe a couple tenths of a knot tops). And this would only be the case when both crew are fully trapped off of the wings. Of course downwind the wings provide no advantage, they make the boat slower. This is why sailing with wings is generally slower in a course race. They only provide a speed advantage in a narrow range of conditions - flat water, high wind, upwind course...how often does that happen? In light wind, in chop, or when sailing downwind, they're slower.

The main issue is that the boat's top speed is mostly limited by a number of other very significant design factors - hull shape, sail shape & size, rudder & daggerboard shapes, and overall weight to name a few. A marginal increase in righting moment is not going to overcome these other design limitations. Unfortunately sailboats in general, and displacement sailboats in particular, will hit a virtual top speed wall where it takes an exponential increase in power to generate any significant increase in speed. The minimal increase in righting moment/power offered by the wings is not significant enough to push a Hobie 18 past this wall and generate any appreciable increase in speed beyond a stock 18.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: So what is faster?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:29 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:38 pm
Posts: 13
Location: Seattle
So is there a top end on an 18? What point of sail and in what wind conditions would that be?

Thanks for all the info. This is very interseting.

Greg


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 Post subject: Re: So what is faster?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:46 am 
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Location: Jersey Shore
Zubie wrote:
So is there a top end on an 18?


Absolutely. Every vehicle (boat, car, plane, rocket, or otherwise) has a top end speed. Sorry to tell you this, but your Hobie 18 isn't going to go 100mph...it isn't even going to go 40mph and probably not 30mph... For a Hobie 18, the top speed is going to be in the neighborhood of 25mph. This would be in flat water on a beam reach or broad reach (which, as it turns out, are courses that don't even favor the use of wings) with around 25mph breeze. Any more wind will just make the boat want to capsize, but not make it go significantly faster.

Not to worry though, when you do get the boat up to this speed, it will FEEL like you're going 100mph.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: So what is faster?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:33 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:10 am
Posts: 408
Location: Black Hills South Dakota
I dissagree, beem reach you can get more leverage at the back of sx wings, as they go so far back.

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Bodhisatfa


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 Post subject: Re: So what is faster?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:51 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 7:49 am
Posts: 1072
Location: North Carolina
All I know is, throw a squaretop and spin on it with a SX stick and you can out run any H18 on any angle of sail. "Nuff said! :D


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