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 Post subject: 18SX vs. Tiger
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:20 am 
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I'm curently sailing an 18sx. I'm thinking about buying a tiger I would be interested in hearing the diference between the two boats. what will I lose?what will I gain? Witch rigs quicker.

Thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:26 am 
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Location: Clear Lake, Iowa
You have everything to gain. The boat is much more technical than the 18sx. You win and lose based on your boat handling. The hull shape is built for speed. The dagger boards are high aspect ratio almost making the catamaran tactical. Abuse them with excessive motion and the boat lets you know. The Tiger is a great boat -- very responsive to adjustments.

The only time you will see an 18sx while racing aboard a Tiger, is at the start. I typically beat all other Hobie classes; its not even close. The performance of the Tiger is outstanding. Upwind -- it points much, much better. Downwind -- there is no comparison -- the spinnaker is to a catamaran like a nitro bottle is to a drag racer. You can really feel the boat "couple-up" when the apparent wind moves forward on the boat as the spinnaker starts to do its job.

Downside. Few, but two come to mind. The jib is non-overlapping (it is more of a blade). This allows the self tacker to do its job. As a result, the whole Formula 18 class is a little weight sensitive (my opinion). We are learning to compensate for it. On a day when the wind is below 7 MPH, the boat is better left on the beach. Anything above that and the boat really turns on. For us, above 15 and we rock (we 410 lbs total crew).

Finally, the 18sx is a stout boat when it comes to damage resistance. The Tiger, as are all modern high performance boats, is a little tender. You will need to take care of the boat. Even the hook on your butt bucket can leave dimples or even holes in this light weight, speed demon hull.

As I said, the Tiger is a great boat. It is a high performance design, with an asymmetrical spinnaker, making the sailing experience equally exciting up and downwind. Because of its speed focus -- I've learned so much about boat handling and boat trim. The boat definitely responds to both good and poor handling. My better days have been when I've treated the rudders gently.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:18 pm 
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Location: League City, Texas, USA
I've raced both boats within the last year - so have a good basis for comparison. I was running a Hobie 18SX with spinnaker and wings removed. This was a great boat to learn beach cat spinnaker handling on. It was also no slouch - we did pretty good on corrected time in a lot of races (both buouy and distance). Compared to my previous boat (An 18 Magnum with no spin) it was clearly a lot faster down wind, and would point better upwind. But....

As Sailing-A-Ray says you have everything to gain going for the Tiger. It will be faster boat for boat than the 18SX in all conditions - and in my book faster often equals more fun. It definitely rewards good boat handling and as a result is very rewarding to learn to sail it well. To get best speed you must be gentle on the steering, avoid pinching, get the weight distribution right (12" either way will make a big difference when racing boat for boat). The boat is even sensitive to mast rotation. Not to say it is a prima-donna, just it rewards careful attention and experimentation.

We are now hassling the Nacra 20's boat for boat around the buoys, and killing them on corrected time in the distance racing. The Tiger is incredibly fast considering it is no feather weight.

So my conclusion: Go for the Tiger - you will not regret it. Two of my sailing friends have also moved from the Hobie 18SX or Hobie 18 onto the Tiger and both have zero regrets.

Chris.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:44 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:45 am
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Location: Clinton Lake Lawrence, KS
A question for Sailing-a-ray and Flumpmaster

We know the 18 set up time, so be honest now.

How long does it take to set the Tiger up, from pulling in the parking lot to locking the doors to go sailing?

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 Post subject: Ready, Set, Go!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:02 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2003 7:17 am
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Location: Clear Lake, Iowa
Short answer -- you'll spend more time rigging the Tiger. Thrity minutes I'd guess, off hand.

Longer answer: From a rigging standpoint -- its a Hobie 18 with a bone-in-da-nose and a cleanex to wipe it! The additional time is associated with rigging the snuffer and getting the spinnaker right. I'd say add 20 minutes. Add another 5 minutes for taping the bridle. so round it to thrity minutes.

I then fuss with the boat. You are talking about a high performance boat. The rigging makes a huge difference on your results and focus. A miss-rigged boat can really throw off your cadence. I make sure that the spinnaker is really right, so I raise and hoist it multiple times. Make sure all the lines are clear and that it will gybe cleanly. I recheck and tighten everything, but you should do this every time you come to shore!

Variations:
Your experience with the Tiger rig, including your crew’s, will make a difference. But this is the same issue with any boat. Maybe you will have more to gain with the Tiger’s bone-in-the-nose when a crew can be working the nose when you are doing other things. Over time, you will rig faster and make fewer mistakes, like any boat. The Tiger error rate is higher initially, but drops dramatically.

Your snuffer tube type can vary the time -- mine is the fiberglass tube and it does not store as easily. So it is more time. The newer Tiger snuffer bag is much faster -- its cloth and stows fast!

How far you strip your boat when you travel can change the time factor. But adjust your H-18 time as well to make the comparison apples-to-apples. If you really strip the rig, then you might have tape time to add.

Your trailer stowage makes a difference as well. More room, less time.

I hope that helps.

Bruce


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:44 am 
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I owned a couple of 18's since 1978. The last one was a built in 1986 which was destroyed in 98 or 99. I bought a Tiger last year. Like they say as you get more experience with the boat it will get easier to rig. The boat is a blast! It takes time to learn how to go fast and keep it in control but the thrill is worth it. My recommendation would be if you get a tiger make sure the 1st time you put the boat together that you have someone who owns one help you. They will make your life a lot easier. I was at a race this weekend and there were 11 boats and almost everyone was rigged differently in one way or another.

As far as time to rig the boat goes the only difference between the 18 and the Tiger is the Spinnaker. Like they said that will take about 15 to 20 minutes. The process is put the pole on, tape the pins with rigging tape, stringing the halyard and retreval line, hoist the spinnaker, lower the spinnaker & attached the retreval line, attach the sheets, rehoist the spinnaker make sure you have led the lines correctly, take the spinnaker back down and you should be ready to go.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:00 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:45 am
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Location: Clinton Lake Lawrence, KS
OK this seems a fair way to compare because the major difference is the spin. How far you take down the rest of the boat is personal preference. Also, if I wanted to throw a boat up just to be on the water and sailing I wouldn't buy a Tiger.

I know enough about gennakers to be dangerous, but I know the test fly on the beach is mandatory. So what time are we talking with fiberglass tube, including the tested spin? 15 to 20 minutes?...come on, I asked for an honest answer.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:09 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2003 7:17 am
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Location: Clear Lake, Iowa
I thought I said 30 minutes. Nothing to hide. Sounds like a little lake-rage, ey?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:49 am 
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Location: Clinton Lake Lawrence, KS
Nope, just need to know. It takes me an hour to get to the lake I sail and as of today, with the amount of sunlight left, it's not worth the weekday, after work drive. A Tiger will reduce my weeknight sailing season by one month based on thirty minutes of setup. All this weighs on my decision and for me a Tiger is a significant expenditure, even used, compared to a 20.

Not to mention you and I would be the only two boats in our Division and we are five and a half hours apart.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:20 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2003 7:17 am
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Location: Clear Lake, Iowa
John,

Don't put the spinnaker pole on when you are short of time.

Hobie 20 is a great boat. Buy a spinnaker for it and you can have a great evening of sailing.

There are two Tigers in the division. More south of you. The Tiger is a member of the F18 class. I have a great time battling it out with the CRAW folks -- there's a very large F18 fleet in the area. A lot of those folks rig them a whole lot faster than I rig mine -- brand has nothing to do with it, which is the information I wa trying to share of the readers. It is dependant on many factors, including skill.

Let me know when you are in the area. Clear Lake is an easy drive. We will have three Tigers at the next regatta.

Happy sailing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:41 pm 
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Location: Clinton Lake Lawrence, KS
We're racing a multihull start at the local yacht club regatta this weekend (instigated by the only Hobie Fleet here). I'm going to check the pulse of the other Hobie sailors there to see if they're interested in Hobie sanctioned points racing. We'll also be at the Last Regatta and might stay for the Nationals. I'm not sure whether I'm done with the "18 experience" yet or not. I don't believe there are any F18's in our local area, but we'll see this weekend.

The only Division 14 Tiger I know of is in Wichita (for sale & to be replaced) and one in Tulsa for sale and not racing.

I have to look at Des Moines/Omaha/Lincoln and Wichita as my primary venues (hopeful of getting North Kansas started up again). As I stated before we're five and a half hours away from you and I can only stand so much practicing.

Where were these Tigers at the North Central Area Championships? Three is the number of 18's that raced.

I'm not looking to trick out a 20, I could trick the 18. I'm just considering being on the front end of the curve if this F18 thing takes off in our vicinity, otherwise I'll race Hobie sanctioned with a 20.

we'll be 8148 or 12853 @ the Last Regatta

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:45 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:00 am
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Location: Long Beach, CA
It does not take me more than about 5 minutes to rig my spinnaker from trailering. In fact the only things that I need to hook up are the pin at the crossbar and the bridles.

Here is why:
Leave the sail in the snuffer.
Leave the halyard and the snuffer line attached.
Leave the sheets attached. I do not even take them off the boat.
Leave the bridles on the pole.
Jib sheet stays on the pole.
No lines are unlaced, either from mast or trampoline.
Snuffer stays on the pole.

When I take the snuffer off the front I put it in the sailbox, which has a hole in the back for that end of the long pole. All the lines snake into the box from the outside and under the lip. It does not take me any more time to rig the Tiger than it did to rig my Miracle. I do have two cat boxes on the trailer so I can put all the stuff that is on a Tiger away. Gear, Toolboxes and spinnaker pole share a box. Sails, Rudders, Daggers, Boom, ect share the other. I also have two sets of sails, working and racing.

Later,
Dan


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:12 pm 
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Location: Clinton Lake Lawrence, KS
Thanks Dan,

That's the info it's so hard for us to get here with our reduced numbers.

Congrats on the F18's, the video and interviews were great, I'm really inspired by the inland folks from Pennsylvania who took second. That's awesome that Tigers were first through fifth. :D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:42 pm 
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Sorry if I confused you. Of course you cant rig the whole boat in 20 minutes! I went sailing last weekend with a person who is not familiar with the spinnaker. It rook about 20 minutes to rig the chute. If it was already in the suffer it would have been quicker. Yes I leave the briddle wires and lines on the pole, along with the lines for the jib sheeting system. That is a very good point! I had a crew take all that stuff apart and it took a while to put it all back together.

If you get a Tiger get rudder covers and keep them on at all times because they chip very easy. Also get the bag for the dagger boards since they have the same problem.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:28 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:00 am
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Location: Long Beach, CA
Thank you John for the accolades. Ollie and Kelly where from the West Coast before they were from Penn. They are terrific sailors!

Hey Ziggysdad did you find a way to come and play the following weekend in San Diego?


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