Multi-purchase main halyard

We have been having a little trouble raising the main sail. I have thoroughly cleaned the luff and track and lubed the track LIBERALLY with dry Teflon spray. Everything goes ok for the first half, progressively getting harder along the way. After getting to half, it gets pretty tough, and again, gets harder as we go. By the time the main is completely up, my crew is pulling so hard on the halyard, he has to use his upper body and his legs pushing on the crossbar to get the sail all the way up. The whole time, I'm feeding the sail into the track. If I didn't know its impossible, I'd swear the halyard would break. I have triple checked the track and luff and found no apparent problems and the pulley wheels at the top and bottom of the mast roll smoothly with little friction. Additionally, dropping the main is super easy, it almost falls completely down on its own. It only needs help getting started (unhooking) and the last 1/4 or so (assuming the wind doesn't help).

This got me thinking, is there a multiple purchase system for the main halyard?
If not, I was thinking I could run the halyard from the mast head, through the locking ring on the leech side of the ring, then back up to the mast head. I would attach the halyard on the opposite side from the hook, to encourage the ring to twist toward the hook. Anyone see any problems with this? Would attaching a pulley to the top of the ring be feasible and/or helpful (concerned about space and lack of twist)?

Of course, if there is some other problem I haven't already checked for, I'm open to those suggestions as well.

EDIT: I had a chance to get to the boat and get a pic to better explain what I'm considering. In the process, I kind of discovered the answer to my last question: Unless someone knows of a suitably small and strong pulley, it doesn't look like adding a pulley will work, I don't think there is enough room.

Some notes on the image:
- The white line is not my halyard, the grey and blue one is. The white line is what I plan to do (assume it would go into the mast head, rather than over it at the pulley).
- The electrical tape is just there to hold the line in place for the picture. My best idea right now is to drill a hole where the white line ends, right in that corner where the white line ends, just barely big enough for the halyard. The halyard would go through the hole and have a stop knot on the other side.
- With this configuration, I would be replacing the halyard with a smaller but stronger line and something slick, probably 5mm dyneema. Any suggestions for a better line would be appreciated, I chose dyneema because of my dyneema trampoline lines which are pretty slick.
- Yes, that ring is smaller, its actually a spare trap ring. It was easier to use that than to remove the halyard ring (that knot is TIGHT).

Thanks,
Kyrle

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Standard Hobie 18

Not saying it won’t work, but you would probably be the first person to try this. I could see this potentially impacting how easy it is to hook and unhook the halyard. I also wonder if the friction of the halyard running through the ring would negate any mechanical advantage. Only one way to find out I suppose. Another thought for tying off the halyard end would be to drill out the rivet for the mast head sheave and attach a tang like this. You could just use a stainless bolt and nut to attach. This would keep both halyard lines better lined up with the original location and eliminate the need to drill holes in the casting.

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/schaefer--dead-end-bails--P002_060_007_537?recordNum=2

Personally, I would make sure you’ve exhaused all other options first. Make sure the boat is directly head to wind when hoisting. Use a 1/4” diameter halyard line. Battens not too tight. Lots of lube on the track AND boltrope. Use a handle on the halyard that you can grip with two hands and pull from directly behind the boat on centerline- two hands on the halyard, one foot braced on the rear crossbar.

Otherwise, let us know how it works out.

sm

Are you feeding the sail into the track, or lifting the sail up while it's in the track? (I hope that question makes sense.)
I used to hoist my sail with my halyard, with my wife feeding the sail, and it was really hard, particularly at the top.
THEN one day, I was with a granddaughter, and had her pull on the halyard (basically just keep tension on it) while I pushed up on the sail using a hand on each side flat against the sail. It was amazingly easy.

(Yeah, I know Matt, you've told us all for years that this is how we're supposed to raise the sail. Now I believe! )

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Yet another Bob!
"Firefly" - 2012 Hobie Getaway with wings and spinnaker
"Sparky" - 1978 Sunfish (OK, it's not a Hobie, but it's a fun little craft)
Too many canoes and kayaks

We had a comp tip mast that after the comp transition the halyard would get beside the sail luff rope and cause a massive amount of friction that made it impossible to raise. The quick solution was to swap on a solid H18 mast like they all should be. Apart from that my only thought would have been to try a 1/4" halyard instead of 3/16 and maybe that would be too thick to get beside the sail on the way up.

srm: The instructions on the can of spray Teflon I have say to put it on one side, so that's all I did (the track). Ill try putting it on the bolt rope as well to see if that helps. As for the friction on the halyard ring, that was the reason I was considering switching out to a different type of line for the halyard (dyneema, its slippery). I hadn't considered a bracket like that instead. I think I like that idea much better than drilling a new hole.

dorienc: It's a bit of both actually. I have to feed (guide into the slot and push up using the boltrope) a little then I do one hand on each side of the sail (as recommended) to push it up until it starts to wedge in the feed point. Then I feed a bit more and repeat. The crew is pulling the halyard as I push up, but not as I feed. It usually only gets wedged in the feed slot 2-3 times as its going up.

TAMUmpower: I do have a comptip, but I think it actually is already 1/4". Isn't that what its supposed to be? I would think switching to a more slippery line would resolve most of that if it is the case. So, before I setup the purchase system, I'll try it normally with the dyneema (or what ever slippery line I end up using) first. I do eventually want to get a 'solid' mast though. Not a fan of comptips after the trouble I had with mine. The problem is finding one I don't have to travel 30+ hours to get. I really don't think its wedging in the comptip though, it gets bad before it gets that far. That's not to say it couldn't wedge like that sooner.

Thanks guys. As always, Hobie forum people rock! Keep the ideas coming! Ill keep you updated on this and Ill definitely post up some finished pics and results if I end up going all the way with the purchase setup.

Unrelated: Looking at GREAT winds on my next trip, 15-18mph winds most of the day with *gulp* 44mph gusts (for a short time). It will be the strongest constant winds we've been able to sail the 18 in so far. Should be fun, until we have to stop a bit for those insane gusts. If only we could be sure we could hold it in the 44mph gust...

-Kyrle

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Standard Hobie 18

Try silicone spray. Use it liberally on both surfaces.

I am interested to hear your results if you do attempt a 2:1 halyard. I’m thinking this could possibly be useful with reefing the mainsail. The 2:1 purchase would potentially reduce the amount that the sail would creep down the mast under load if the halyard were cleated (rather than hooked) while reefing. I was also looking at the mast head on my boat earlier today and I think you could possibly drill out the rivet for the mast head sheave and install a shackle there (might have to bend it open a little and use a bolt rather than the standard pin). This would give you a tie off point for the halyard that was directly on the centerline of the mast, so less likely to affect the ability to engage and disengage the ring on the hook.

sm

To attach a halyard to the mast head: Thread a strong 7/64 rope through the eye of the masthead pulley. Tie a bowline on one end and attach the end of the halyard to that. Tie a stopper knot on the other end of the dyneema line to keep it from pulling through.

Be aware that dyneema is a very slippery rope. I did some strength tests on 5mm dyneema tied in a loop with a figure 8 bend and found the rope slipped through the knot at ~1400 lbs on the loop, or about 700lbs on the knot. The rated strength for this rope was over 5000lbs. I am not saying don't use dyneema, just be aware of how slick it is. When possible dyneema should be spliced rather than knotted. Dyneema splices are widely considered bombproof.

I already did Teflon on the bolt rope, so I'll see how that goes. I'll get some silicone spray to try if applying to the bolt rope doesn't help.

I wasn't able to find a dead end bail of a suitable size, but the shackle idea seems promising. I think I found the perfect shackle that wouldn't require any modification to work, so I'll probably go that route. https://www.tulsachain.com/screw-pin-wide-d-shackle-stainless-steel.html?utm_medium=ppc&utm_source=adwords&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4dG0xdjt6gIVuey1Ch2a_QWuEAQYAiABEgJOF_D_BwE the 1/4" seems to be the perfect size and has a working load of 750lbs. That should be strong enough right?



Thanks for that info. Since I'd likely be going with the shackle idea presented by sm, I probably wont be using a stopper knot. Per your suggestion, I'll go with a small eye-splice to connect the dyneema line to the shackle. Guess I need to learn a new skill, I've never spliced line before...

I've been trying to do some research on it, but its not a popular topic apparently: Are there any other slippery rope types I should be looking at for this? It seems dyneema is a good choice (for friction), but is overkill really (for strength). That's not a problem, but I'd be paying a premium for the extra strength that I don't really need. I'm looking at just under $100 for this single halyard line (~90 feet @ $1 per foot + shipping). If I can find a less expensive alternative (or dyneema source), I'd be much happier.

Even if I get this sorted before resorting to the 2:1 system, I may go ahead with it anyways. When I suggested the change to my crew, the answer was an emphatic "YES!". There also seems to be other applications and interest. I'd love to give back to the community that has helped me so much with my 18, with this small contribution.

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Standard Hobie 18

I wouldn’t be too concerned about it. The actual breaking load should be several times higher than the working load. The shackle manufacturers have to provide a conservative number for the working load since they don’t know how the end customer will actually be using the part.

sm

i would suggest trying to raise the sail with the boat on it's side.... Tip it over, support the mast so it's parallel to the ground.(saw horse works great)... ..raise the sail.... walk with it and see if you come across any pinch points that might restrict the sail... sometimes the track has been known to get pinched somewhere along the way.... just a thought...

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Paul Evenden
NRO, RMMCC, CJ

Here’s my 2 cents worth:
- make sure the rig tension is loose.
- make sure the boat is head to wind
- make sure the mast is facing exactly the same direction as the sail
- if the sail is very old ( more than 5 years old) then the sail will have stretched more than the bolt rope and may need adjusting.
- trim the top 1” of bolt rope off the sail.
- use a 5mm halyard with spectra or dyneema core.
- make sure the battens are not too tight.
- make sure the top halyard pulley is a high quality stainless steel ball bearing sheave (Allen make the best one).
Enjoy

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John Forbes
Hobie 18 Reimagined
Sail # 490
Boat name: 18@heart
http://www.hobie18.fun
https://www.facebook.com/Hobie18catamaran/

It has taken a while, but I'm finally getting around to setting this up. Using all of the suggestions here has helped a small amount, but the problem persists. For anyone wondering (seems to be a big debate on other forums), I didn't notice a difference between Teflon and silicon lube. Either was much better than none however. I never noticed a specific spot it suddenly got more difficult at, it has always been more gradual, but I did put the boat on its side and try anyways. It wasn't much help since there isn't a specific spot it gets stuck at and I couldn't find any pinching or problem spots. It was easier (aside from being awkward) to 'raise' the sail on its side though. I have the parts ordered (shackle linked previously and 5mm dyneema single braid), but still need some tools and some recommendations.

First, does anyone have recommendations for a decent fid set that they use? I'm looking for something good but not expensive. I don't need a professional set and would like to avoid a bottom of the barrel set.

Second, what type of splice would be best to connect to the shackle I'm putting through the sheave? I was looking at a Brummel lock, but have concerns about having that long length of a thicker section. It might not flex well enough to smoothly slip around the halyard ring and/or might not fit properly around/through the sheave. Any other eye-splices I should be looking at? That seemed to be the most recommended for single braid dyneema lines.

Thanks,
Kyrle

_________________

Standard Hobie 18

Seems like either your sail track is a little tight or your boltrope is a little thick. Mine always ends up being a bit of a handful towards the top also, but I've never really tried a lubricant on the boltrope. It's on my to-do list. Backing off the batten tension a bit may help?

I think you said you have a 1/4" halyard, correct? Have you tried a smaller halyard? I tried replacing mine last year, bought 1/4" line and quickly realized that my halyard is 3/16". 1/4" line seems very difficult to slide through the sheaves, especially the one at the top of the mast. I'm planning on sticking with 3/16" there. Are most of you using 1/4" or 3/16"?

Also, check your sheaves at the top and bottom of the mast. My bottom sheave was stuck & completely worn through on one side when I first got my boat!

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Mike

'79 H18 standard 'Rocketman II' sail #14921 RIP
'78 H18 (unnamed) sail #14921
'08 H16 sail #114312
'97 H21SC sail #238

Yep, I'm pretty sure the current halyard is 1/4" and has never been replaced since I've owned the boat. The line I just purchased should be slightly smaller though. The sheaves roll easily and smoothly. The battens are as loose as I feel comfortable having them. I was taught never to have tight battens anyways, just enough to have them securely in with no fore/aft wiggle.

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Standard Hobie 18

I have used a D Splicer for small line and a bent coat hanger for larger line.

A locked Brummel will be fine, just remember to taper the tail. Lots of videos online to guide you.

For my halyard I am running 3mm braided polyester, tied to the ring. Nothing fancy but it does need to be wrapped around a handle when hoisting.

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H18 Newbie, Too heavy for the 14