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 Post subject: Forestay tension?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:37 am 
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When rigging my H18 I'm unsure how tight to rig the forestay. Currently I put a screw driver through the stay adjuster and pull down to get tension while attaching the forestay to furler. Should the stays be snug when the boat is sitting rigged? I plan on sailing solo and don't think I will be able to get very much tension in the wires rigging the boat myself.

I understand that forestay tension inscreases with main sheet tension but I've never sailed a boat with slack in stays and can't understand how it would be a good thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Forestay tension?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:36 am 
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Location: Jersey Shore
The best way I can describe the H18 rig tension is "snug" to slightly loose. You don't want the shrouds flopping around, but you also don't need the rig to be heavily tensioned.

You are correct, the forestay will automatically tighten when you tension the mainsheet and the shroud tension has virtually no effect on the forestay tension while sailing. The reason you don't want to over-tension the shrouds is because too much tension will inhibit mast rotation.

Before you lower your mast, you should loosen one side of the shrouds. This will make inserting the mast step pin easier as well as make removing the forestay pin easier. It will also make inserting the forestay clevis pin a lot easier when stepping the mast the next time. Note that you don't adjust the rig tension through the forestay, you adjust rig tension through the shrouds. When you raise the mast, the shrouds will initially be loose.

There are two ways to tension/loosen the rig on the 18 once the mast is up. The first is to simply have one person hang on the trapeze wires while the other person adjusts the position of the shroud adjuster. If you have two people, this is the easiest way to do it.

The second method involves using the boom and mainsheet blocks and can be done singlehanded. Connect your boom to the gooseneck, hook up your mainsheet blocks/traveler, and then connect your main halyard to the back of the boom and hoist the boom so there is about 3 feet of separation between the blocks. Tie off the halyard securely at the base of the mast. Swing the boom/traveler all the way over to the side of the boat you want to adjust. Crank down on the main sheet until the shroud goes slack. Adjust the shroud and then release the sheet.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: Forestay tension?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:50 am 
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+1 on what SRM wrote.

In addition, when rigging the boat you should be aware of mast angle. There is a measurement you can make to make sure the mast is properly aligned fore/aft. I will search old posts and try to find it for you. Determine which hole the forestay goes in to get the desired mast angle (pretty much perpendicular for this boat) and then you just remember which hole to put the forestay pin into. After the mast angle/forestay pin location is known, you rig the side stays according to personal preference or conditions. Some keep side stays really tight by using the methods SRM suggested. I'm not an expert but these were the suggestions i was given when i asked similar questions.
Good luck !


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 Post subject: Re: Forestay tension?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:17 pm 
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Location: Jersey Shore
Quote:
then you just remember which hole to put the forestay pin into.


No need to remember which hole the forestay goes into. Once you set the forestay adjuster plate in the furler so that the mast rake is where you want it, all you need to do is connect / disconnect the forestay wire from the adjuster plate to raise/lower the mast - the forestay can only connect to the top of the adjuster.

Same goes for the shrouds. When you loosen the rig, you only need to loosen one shroud. The other side stays set so you can use it as a reference the next time you rig up.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: Forestay tension?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:12 pm 
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srm wrote:
The best way I can describe the H18 rig tension is "snug" to slightly loose. You don't want the shrouds flopping around, but you also don't need the rig to be heavily tensioned.

You are correct, the forestay will automatically tighten when you tension the mainsheet and the shroud tension has virtually no effect on the forestay tension while sailing. The reason you don't want to over-tension the shrouds is because too much tension will inhibit mast rotation.

Before you lower your mast, you should loosen one side of the shrouds. This will make inserting the mast step pin easier as well as make removing the forestay pin easier. It will also make inserting the forestay clevis pin a lot easier when stepping the mast the next time. Note that you don't adjust the rig tension through the forestay, you adjust rig tension through the shrouds. When you raise the mast, the shrouds will initially be loose.

There are two ways to tension/loosen the rig on the 18 once the mast is up. The first is to simply have one person hang on the trapeze wires while the other person adjusts the position of the shroud adjuster. If you have two people, this is the easiest way to do it.

The second method involves using the boom and mainsheet blocks and can be done singlehanded. Connect your boom to the gooseneck, hook up your mainsheet blocks/traveler, and then connect your main halyard to the back of the boom and hoist the boom so there is about 3 feet of separation between the blocks. Tie off the halyard securely at the base of the mast. Swing the boom/traveler all the way over to the side of the boat you want to adjust. Crank down on the main sheet until the shroud goes slack. Adjust the shroud and then release the sheet.

sm


Quick question, SM: Even if the shrouds are fairly "tight" sitting on the beach, once under sail wouldn't the leeward shroud loosen under load to the point where the mast can freely rotate to 90 degrees? When I swapped out my shroud anchor pins this summer I snugged the shrouds down pretty tight (I wasn't comfortable with the battering my looser rig appeared to be taking in heavier seas) and it didn't seem to inhibit the rotation. But this is all pretty new to me, especially the tuning stuff. Do you ever rotate the mast beyond 90 degrees? I still have a lot to learn.


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 Post subject: Re: Forestay tension?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:01 pm 
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Location: Jersey Shore
Upwind you're correct. Unless the wind is really light, you won't have rotation issues. This is because when the rig gets loaded (due to air pressure, downhaul tension and mainsheet tension), the mast bends which shortens the distance between the mast tang and the mast base which effectively loosens the shrouds. You also don't need a lot of rotation upwind. About 45 degrees or so is all.

Downwind, however, the forces are lower so the mast doens't bend much and the shrouds will stay tight. In addition, downwind, you're looking to get more rotation out of the mast. In order for the mast to rotate to 90deg or beyond, the leeward shroud has to wrap around the mast, so excess shroud tension will inhibit this increased mast rotation.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: Forestay tension?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:06 pm
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Location: SE PA/ Chesapeak Bay
Hi,

You want information about mast rake ???

1) Measure up 48" from the base of your mast (on the front) ... make a mark.

2) Measure from the bridle tang at the clevis pin to the mark made on the front of the mast .... it should be in the range from 105" to 107".

Depending on the combined crew wieght and wind conditions this is the range of the measurement

Min Rake: Heavy wieght teams in light to heavy air/choppy water, medium wieght teams in moderate air w/ choppy water.

Max Rake: light wieght teams in light or heavy air, and for medium wieght teams in flat water conditions

Basically stand the mast up for power/torque/drive through chop when sailing heavy .... rake the mast back for speed in flat conditions especially when sailing light.

Ref: H18 Performance Manual/Phil Berman, pgs 49-51

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HarryMurphey
H-18 mag/ #9458
Fleet 54 Div 11


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 Post subject: Re: Forestay tension?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:02 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:55 am
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Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Personally I dont like tape measures and making marks on my boat, and since I've already posted my rigging tips and hot to rake the mast, I'll just quote it...

Tom Machette wrote:
Tips on how to rig/de-rig...
When I take my mast down to trailer the boat, I rarely unattach the rigging from the mast or the boat (only at the end of the year). I leave the shrouds and trap wires attached and coil the wires on the tramp, I then jam the trap handles (dogbones/handles) into the dagger board case. To keep the wires on the boat put them under a foot strap, and lash them to it with a bungee.

Before you drop the mast un-tension one of the side stays to the top hole of the chain plate and leave it untill the next time you set up the boat. Leave the other side, as it gives you a referance for what hole the pin needs to go in when you raise the mast the next time.

When you raise the mast attach the forstay in any hole, it wont matter, you will tension it accordingly in the next few steps.

Re-tension the side stay so it is the identical to the other side.

Take one of your 4 trap wires and head to the front of the boat put all your weight on the trap handle, you can use a trap harness if you need to. move the forstay as far as you can into the furler and repin in the top hole of the furler. I always use the bottom hole for the jib, to keep it as close to the boat as possible.

MAST RAKE

I add a short piece of line to one of the trapeze wires, take it forward and while pulling it taut, I use my thumb to "mark" the line where it touches the pin that holds the bridle to the bow tang.

Then, while holding the "mark" I made I walk it to the back and once again, while pulling it taut, I touch it to the outer curve of the deck where it rolles over to the lip, behind the rear cross bar and on the outside of the boat. This gives a refrence that is the same for all hobie 18's no matter what the shroud lengths are.

A medium air starting setting should be about 4 to 6 inches behind the back of the rear crossbar. Further forward for lighter wind or heaver crew, and further back for more wind or lighter crew.

Raking it further forward will reduce your pointing ability, but give you superior performance downwind.

Raking it further back will improve your pointing ability but reduce your downwind performance.

Small adjustments in mast rake can be made with the jib forstay tension.

Adjust the shrouds accordingly and keep them fairly tight, the 18 is not a sloppy boat like the 17 or 16.


The reason I rake the mast like this, is because it can be done on ANY hobie 18 with just an extra peice of line. You dont have to remember any measurements or demensions, and you can have 2 hobie 18's raked identically in a matter of minutes.

Hope this helps


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 Post subject: Re: Forestay tension?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:31 am 
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Location: Jersey Shore
Tom Machette wrote:
Small adjustments in mast rake can be made with the jib forstay tension.


On a 16 yes, but not on the 18. All of the mainsheet load is taken by the forestay, and the forestay should be pre-tensioned before setting the jib luff tension, othewise you run the risk of breaking the jib halyard.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: Forestay tension?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:51 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:46 pm
Posts: 169
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Here's how I tighten my rig which seems like a lot less work than some of the suggestions I've read here. While the mast is still down, I adjust the sidestays (if needed). I use the wench on my trailer mast yoke to raise the mast attaching the hook to two of my trapeze wires (one on each side). Using the wench, I can tighten the rig as much as I want to then simply pin the forestay to the front chain plate and then release the wench. If I decide to adjust my mast rake I simply have my crew hang his weight on a trapeze wire one side at a time taking the load off of the stay while I adjust it. Obviously, this technique won't work if you're boat isn't sitting on the trailer or you do not have a trailer wench.

Tom
H18M


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 Post subject: Re: Forestay tension?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:58 pm 
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Location: SE PA/ Chesapeak Bay
Tom,

"Trailer Wench" ?????

..... or, do you mean "winch" ......

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HarryMurphey
H-18 mag/ #9458
Fleet 54 Div 11


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 Post subject: Re: Forestay tension?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:57 am 
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I don't know if my wife would help me with raising the mast and checking rake. And if i told the wench to go sit on the mast yoke and pull then i'd have waaay too much tension !


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 Post subject: Re: Forestay tension?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:07 pm 
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Location: SE PA/ Chesapeak Bay
Hey Tom,

What gear ratio is that "Trailer Wench"????

.... does it come in a "Bikini" model????


I've been laughing all day .... just one letter difference ....

Thanks for cheering me up .....

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HarryMurphey
H-18 mag/ #9458
Fleet 54 Div 11


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 Post subject: Re: Forestay tension?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:01 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:46 pm
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Location: Bakersfield, CA
I don't know what you guys are making a big deal about....."wench" is EXACTLY what I meant! "Wench" - one of female gender that performs labor as directed by her much superior male partner. Now of course, the "wench" does use the "winch" when assisting me raise my mast.....but only as directed! :lol:

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: Forestay tension?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:56 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:24 pm
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Location: milwaukee,wi
so...... then..... she's a "winch wench"? :shock:
"where'd she go?" "the wench went to winch,,,why?" :roll:

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