Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:06 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Square Top Main
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:22 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:47 pm
Posts: 97
Location: Punta Gorda, FL
I am kicking around the idea of getting a square top. Of course I know many of you have much experience in this department so I thought I would ask first before shopping around. Can some of you give me some education on this subject. I was looking at whirlwind sails. He has a dacron squaretop square, I heard dacron is no good for a square top. Opinions? Is it worth the money for someone that just goes out to play when he gets a chance? I think I'm leaning more on the longevity of the sails and the performace I can get out of them more so than racing (not going to race). And of course cost is always there.

Any advice I can get from this great community would be awesome! Thanks.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Square Top Main
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:44 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 85
Location: Memphis, TN
I've got a Pentax squaretop from Whirlwind as well as a pinhead dacron. One thing I discovered during the transition is that the sail controls become much more important, you must have a good powerful downhaul and make sure your rotation and outhaul are easily adjusted.

The Pentax squaretop will run more money than the dacron, but you can achieve so much better sail shape with the lower stretch fabric. If you are going "off the reservation" with aftermarket sails you might as well go all the way. :mrgreen:

Image

_________________
Damon Linkous
Hobie 18 Magnum
Catamaran Sailing at TheBeachcats.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Square Top Main
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:28 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:32 am
Posts: 257
Damon, we missed you down here for Horn Island Hop...

Anyway, can you share your thoughts regarding the square top pentex, with a more powerful downhaul, and the pros/cons of a comptip up top ?

Thx, maybe see you at Juanas in Sept?

Rob


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Square Top Main
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:47 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:58 pm
Posts: 176
Location: SE Michigan / NE Indiana
Curious - would going square-top affect the Portsmouth rating?

I race occasionally but almost never against another H18. Although the boat is 100% class legal today, I'm starting to question whether its worth it. The tramp will need to be replaced soon and the main as well. Factory versions of them ain't cheap!!

I love my original sail, but at 23+ years old, its getting a little-bit tired... Was thinking of keeping the original sale/jib for rec use and upgrading the main for racing (already got a new jib for racing last year).

Here's a quick pic of a boatload of kids from Saturday...
Image

_________________
Jeff R
'88 H18 Jolly Mon
'10 F18 Closely Called
Sail Michigan's Great Lakes in 2014
cramsailing.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Square Top Main
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:19 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 85
Location: Memphis, TN
RobPatt wrote:
Damon, we missed you down here for Horn Island Hop...

Was sorry to miss it, one of my favorites, sometimes real life gets in the way. Each regatta I make is basically a thousand mile round trip weekend, so sometimes it's hard to pull off.
Quote:
Anyway, can you share your thoughts regarding the square top pentex, with a more powerful downhaul, and the pros/cons of a comptip up top ?

I've never had an 18 without a comptip, so it's what I'm used to, I don't think it makes much difference from what I've seen.

When I got the Pentax sail I was still using the "Power Downhaul 5:1" from the Hobie catalog and it didn't take long to see I'd need more, so had a continuos line 8:1 setup installed (riveted) on the mast.

The reason you need a good working downhaul, outhaul, and rotator with the new sail is you have so much more control over the shape, and very small changes in the settings of these make a big difference in the power of the sail. With the original dacron sails and the heavy batten at the foot, the outhaul and rotation control aren't very affective, and depowering with the downhaul is limited because of the stretch of the dacron material.
Quote:
Thx, maybe see you at Juanas in Sept?

Rob

Planning on it, love that place too.

_________________
Damon Linkous
Hobie 18 Magnum
Catamaran Sailing at TheBeachcats.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Square Top Main
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:58 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:32 am
Posts: 257
Damon, hope I'm not nit-picking the topic to death!... :-)

I've got an SX squaretop that I'm going to have cut to standard size, and I'm trying to learn as much as possible about the sail, rig, adjustments, etc beforehand...

What battens do you use w/the squaretop pentex? Stiff old hobies, or did get you new and do you think THEY make any difference?

Thanks much. -Rob


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Square Top Main
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:08 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 85
Location: Memphis, TN
RobPatt wrote:
What battens do you use w/the squaretop pentex? Stiff old hobies, or did get you new and do you think THEY make any difference?


Yes, new battens for the new sail.
http://www.thebeachcats.com/pictures/?g2_itemId=15026

The new battens were e-glass from RBS Batten Systems
http://www.rbsbattens.com/

I bought them from Whirlwind with the sail, Chip matched the bend characteristics to the sail so the shape sets correctly.
Image

Image

_________________
Damon Linkous
Hobie 18 Magnum
Catamaran Sailing at TheBeachcats.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Square Top Main
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:25 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:06 pm
Posts: 610
Location: SE PA/ Chesapeak Bay
Hi,

I have a H18 which I race in the HCA-NA regettas and keep "class legal" ... I also have a P19 that I converted to a P19MX when Randy Smythe designed the "MX" sailplan.

My "MX" sails were both origonally made of "Pentex" (both Jib and Main) .... but when I needed a new Jib after several years I went w/ "Racing Dacron". I feel that while the mainsail benefits from being made of "Pentex" ... the slightly greater performance advantages of having the jib made of "Pentex" is not really worth it over the life of the jib since the "Pentex" jib de-grades faster vs the "Racing Dacron" jib. Now maybe if I was a better sailer w/ better crew and had more $$$$'s I would have had my second jib made out of "Pentex" .... but my experience was that one morning I had a "servicable Pentex" jib .... by the afternoon I had a "paint tarp" .... the jib de-graded that fast. So my theory is that while a "Pentex" jib will give you greater performance over a shorter lifespan ... a "Racing Dacron" jib will give you a much longer racing lifespan at a slightly lowwer performance level (but average out to over the longer timespan ...)

I totally agree w/ the comments about the mast rotation and downhaul .... I even upgraded my mainsheet to a 9X1 so as to have a "finer" adjustment for the squaretop mainsail

Harry

_________________
HarryMurphey
H-18 mag/ #9458
Fleet 54 Div 11


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Square Top Main
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:50 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:47 pm
Posts: 97
Location: Punta Gorda, FL
Thank you guys for the conversations. John asked me to post the following photos of his square top main. Nice boat John.
Image

He also wrote me "I have also modified my mast rotator (with advice from Harry Murphy), using a pulley for easier rotation, and a bungee on the stern end of the rotator line, easier to uncleat..." I have done these to my boat, thanks to pics from John earlier this year.

Image

Image

I haven't heard of any experience with a dacron main. Is this an option or is this really not a good material for the square top main? I guess I'm considering it for it's long life, and I get the benifits of performance. .


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Square Top Main
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:52 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:06 pm
Posts: 610
Location: SE PA/ Chesapeak Bay
Hi,

A mainsail made of "Racing Dacron" is what the Tornadoes use ... or at least that is what I've seen. So that material can and is used for mainsails ....

It's just that if "Pentex" is allowed to "flog" it degrades VERY quickly .... so alot depends on how the jib is handled by the "crew" ..... the mainsail w/ it's fully battened design can't flog like a jib can .....

I just tie my block for the mast rotator to the rotator arm w/ a short piece of 1/8" spectra/vectra .... both shackles or spectra/vectra work fine ....

Consider upgrading to "spinloc's" for the Jr Jamcleets for the mast rotator and outhaul .... they work some much easier!!!!!

PS: I'm using the same RBS manufactured battens in my MX Mainsail ....

_________________
HarryMurphey
H-18 mag/ #9458
Fleet 54 Div 11


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Square Top Main
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:55 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:06 pm
Posts: 610
Location: SE PA/ Chesapeak Bay
John,

I was just looking at the pic's of your boat again .... it looks great by the way ....

I noticed something in the back-ground ... your Jib-Sheet block ....

I have "magnum" wings ... and I was having issues w/ the camcleet adjustment on my jibsheet blocks ..... if I didn't constantly adjust them up or down depending on whether I was sailing/racing w/ or w/o Mag wings .... I found I couldn't "POP"/release the jibsheet ..... and after one particulary SPECTACULAR pitchpole while trapped-out off the wing (I was just bouncing the jibsheet off the magnum wing cover), I got to studing the problem .....

The solution I came up w/ was to re-mount the cam cleet so it "POP's" up .... not down. It's not hard to do .... it just takes some longer SS Mach Screws w/ nuts. It has worked well for me .... I found a "sweet" spot so I don't have to constanly re-adjust my Jib Camcleet settings/angles .... and I can "POP"/release the jibsheet while trapped out w/ or w/o the wings ....

Give it a try ......

_________________
HarryMurphey
H-18 mag/ #9458
Fleet 54 Div 11


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Square Top Main
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:52 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:31 am
Posts: 71
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
I am in the process of potentially buying a new set of sails (Apen 6 Pentex scrim mylar with square head) for my H18. Looking at the two square top photgraphs of the pentex sails I see that they have different cuts. Any feedback on which of the two is a better and faster cut

Thanks
Richard
[img]c:\hobie\sail%20compare.jpg[/img]

_________________
Richard Stephens
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Square Top Main
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:29 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 7:49 am
Posts: 1073
Location: North Carolina
Both sails are vertical cut. One is a 18SE and the other is an SX. You can't see the panels on Damons sail but you can on Johns. Same manufacturer as well for both sails.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group