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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:23 pm 
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Hi, I'm new to the forums, and it's because I have questions before potentially buying a Hobie... This is one of those questions.

I'm looking at a Hobie 18 Magnum, and my largest concern so far is how much weight is exactly needed to right one of these... My friend and I (this friend would be sailing it most of the time with me, and is my lightest friend) weigh around 280lbs, each at 140lbs.

My friend and I can barely right a Hobie Wave. Another friend who weighs around 200lbs and owns a Hobie 16 and sails it solo can barely right it on his own.

... Which is why I am sketchy about how much weight it takes exactly. My friend says we would definitely weigh enough, but I don't believe so...

Any personal experiences that anyone can share to help me narrow down to the exact weight it takes? Or does anyone know the exact minimum weight?

And no, I don't want to keep a clunky righting bag or pole on my boat.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:50 am 
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i think your requirement of "exactly" precludes you from owning this boat. to give a figure of "exactly this weight" would be for "exactly this situation". there are so many variables that change the conditions of righting occurring. i assume you mean "exactly" as a minimum weight required, thus, that said weight may not be enough, or, more than needed, depending on your technique, your height, the wind, the waves, water in the lower hull, water in the upper hull, water in the mast, mastbob, age of the sails, material of the sails, gear on board, length of your righting line,how long has it been on its side, general condition of the boat, age of the boat, your crew height, weight, experience, mental attitude that day and so on.
no one i think is going to tell you, that exactly 221lbs 14ozs, will right the boat every time.no matter what..... but on the other, hand 600 lbs will do the trick every time.
Now, if the boat has "Turtled",,,,,,,,,,, it is game on..........


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:14 am 
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You will probably need a better system than just righting lines underneath the tramp. That's my system but I weigh 270 and singlehand the boat all the time. I can right it alone but just barely. You will need to stand on the bow of the hull in the water to get the boat to come around in the wind (see the diagram in the manual for this). You will need to keep the boat from turtling. Best way to do that is make sure the mast is water tight. Leaky mast will turtle the boat very quickly.

All that said, I can count on one hand the number of times I have dumped mine. The bows on the 18 don't dive like the 16 and the wings give you early warning about excessive heel. If you are flying a hull and dragging the leeward wing, you're up too high and at risk of dumping. If you're good with your traveler & mainsheet and they are free to run then you won't dump it much, if at all.

Good luck!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:32 am 
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I think the published minimum of 295 lbs is pretty spot on. I've tried righting the boat with about 275 lbs onboard, and it just wasn't going to come up. I've tried with about 290 lbs and it was a little slow going, but did come up. At 300 lbs or more, it comes right up. A righting bag is a waste of time, btw. They straight up don't work. If you're underweight, the easiest solution is to bulk up! But you can also construct a righting pole for more leverage, which will allow for singlehanded righting of the boat. Note also that depending on the wind and wave conditions, you may need more or less weight to right the boat. It's not so much of an exact science.

I have an all aluminum mast with no leaks, no bob, and the Easy Rite system... the bungie goes along the outside of each hull. You do need to pay attention to proper technique, too. Release the mainsheet and furl the jib before righting the boat. Make sure to rotate the boat so that the bows are 45 degrees off the wind... that is, the wind is blowing on the decks of the hulls and on the top side of the trampoline, but at a 45 degree angle to it. That way, the wind helps to right the boat. As the mast lifts up, the wind will get under the sail and help get it clear of the water, also helping to right the boat. The wave action should also help rock the boat to get the mast clear of the water.

As RobertNJ pointed out also, the H18 is a much more stable platform than the Wave or the H16. The vast majority of the times I've capsized, it's been my own carelessness or a runaway mainsheet. Didn't head up soon enough in a gust, didn't release the sheet quick enough, pushed a little too far, had weight on the wrong side of the boat, etc. I've only pitchpoled once, and it was probably a 30mph gust on a broad reach sailing against a 2-3mph current. I've burried the bows in the back of waves and come back from it every time. If you're careful with it and know how to handle the boat, you won't have many capsizes on your hands. But hey, half the fun of a Hobie is pushing it to that point!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:19 am 
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I'd be interested to hear why you think righting bags straight up don't work.... I know a guy that uses one to right his 17 and he tends to flip a lot. I have one that I strap under my tramp (it actually fits into one of the very small tramp bags and is clipped to the tramp lacings, totally out of the way). I've never needed to use it, but always considered it to be an insurance policy if I got into a situation where I couldn't right the boat.

Regarding righting at 280 LB, I would be concerned if you're saying you have trouble righting a Wave with that much weight. Sounds like more of a technique issue than purely lack of weight. At 280 LB and with good technique, the Wave should pop up without a problem.

As far as the 18 is concerned, 280 LB is going to be the bottom end of the righting scale. There's really no way to specify an absolute weight. Weather conditions, technique, height of the crew... it's all a factor, but at 280 there's a good chance you could have some trouble.

sm


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:23 am 
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Height is a good point. I'm 6 foot 3 inches and 270# so I can get good leverage on the righting lines - Robert


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:28 am 
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srm wrote:
I'd be interested to hear why you think righting bags straight up don't work


You're right, I wasn't very clear there. What I should have said is that I've never had luck with or particularly enjoyed using my righting bag, when I had one. It was very awkward and difficult to try to fill the bag, hold it over my shoulder (but keep it above the water level), and lean out with it. I just disliked every aspect of it, and I never successfully righted the boat with it. It seemed to be more trouble than it was worth. I lost the bag after a powerboat assisted me (why aren't the bags brightly colored!?). I've talked to a few other sailors who have had similar frustrations with them.

To be fair, I only tried to use it a few times, and I was probably too light even with the righting bag. But based on my experience with it, I have little interest in trying it again. I can always flag down a nearby boat for assistance. There are always powerboaters nearby, and I've got a marine radio if I ever got into trouble.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:08 am 
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raisehull wrote:
Now, if the boat has "Turtled",,,,,,,,,,, it is game on..........
I disagree. My boat has turtled many times and never have I had difficulty righting it, and have deliberately turtled my boat just to make righting easier in high winds.

Step 1: Loosen jib and main sheets, and traveler.
Step 2: The righting line should be routed from the dolphin striker, under the windward hull (underwater), then across the bottom of the boat back to the leeward hull. Then you get to do the slippery balancing act of standing on the leeward hull while pulling. Use the righting line to pull the top of the mast up so it points into the wind and to a capsized position. This is made easier as the wind pressure gets under the trampoline.
Step 3: Keep pulling and the wind on the tramp will help right the boat, but as soon as the wind gets under the sail get ready to jump for the windward side!

That's that.

When righting from a capsize it is very important to point the bows at least 45 degrees into the wind. I do this in one of two ways:
1. Swim to the bow and hold on as a sea anchor, and sometimes swim the bow if I'm in a hurry, while the wind weather vanes the boat into position.
2. Swim to the top of the mast and do the same as #1. I'll do this step if the boat may turtle, keeping in mind that I'm wearing a life vest as added buoyancy.

All the above is dependent upon the #1A step of making sure the mast is sealed. If it takes on water then you're toast. One way to test for leaks is by dunking it in the lake before stepping it. Seal the spots where you see bubbles.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:49 pm 
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Location: Bristol, Rhode Island, U.S.A.
srm wrote:
Regarding righting at 280 LB, I would be concerned if you're saying you have trouble righting a Wave with that much weight. Sounds like more of a technique issue than purely lack of weight. At 280 LB and with good technique, the Wave should pop up without a problem.


If you mean that you're concerned about 280lbs on a Hobie Wave, I meant that I can barely right one myself at 140lbs, not 280lbs. I am 5'10". The 280lbs is for the Hobie 18 that I have bought.
If not, I don't believe it is an issue of technique - I always point the mast towards the wind, the two Hobie Waves that I use have the masthead floats, sails uncleated, and I'm as far out as possible.
I always try the traditional "two hands on the righting line with my body hanging out as if I'm on a trapeze" (which has never worked for me), then resorting to "one hand holding the strap and my body literally as far as possible outwards". In about 1-2ft waves, the boat just slowwwwwwwly starts to inch its way up by doing this.

Back to the Hobie 18 topic, I'd say that it seems the general consensus is that 280lbs is the very low end of the spectrum and is not ideal for righting this sized boat in any condition. However, this is the lightest weight combination I'd be sailing it with.

I may just have to suck up the fact that I don't want a righting pole and make one anyways for safety concerns.

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1985 Hobie 18 Magnum


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:16 am 
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SabresfortheCup wrote:
A righting bag is a waste of time, btw. They straight up don't work.

I have to disagree. I solo a Nacra 5.7, Nacra 5.0, & now a H18 Magnum, & use a Colorado Big Bag. I weigh 170ish, & cannot right any of the above boats solo,(unless it's blowing 20mph).
I have righted the Nacra in 4 minutes using the bag.
You are correct in that it is very difficult to plank out while holding a bag. The trick is to use a 3:1 purchase, with a cleat.
Image
Drop the bg & fill, then hoist using the purchase. You can now easily step infront of the bag webbing, then hike out, using the strategically placed knots.
At first nothing seems to happen, but as water drains off sails, it comes up.
I turtled the H18 yesterday, stuck the mast in the mud, & used the bag to easily right the boat. The big problem was getting the boat to pivot around, with the mast buried a foot into the clay bottom.
I have only splashed the H18 twice, & in both cases it turtled in seconds, despite a sealed mast.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:49 am 
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edchris177, your technique to using a righting bag sounds interesting, I could see that being wholly more successful than slinging the bag over your shoulder and trying to fill it and hoist it up while hiking out. I also never realized that a righting bag could be so effective. At 150lbs, I didn't expect much from the bag when I tried to right my H18 solo.

As far as turtling is concerned, I've capsized my H18 at least a half dozen times, and even pitchpoled it once, and never had a problem with turtling. It gets close if you sit on the top hull after a capsize, but if you jump off it always ends up laying comfortably on it's side. Even sitting on it's side for 5+ minutes, it's never even shown a hint of wanting to turtle. However, my mast is the original all aluminum mast, without a comptip, so that may be why my boat doesn't turtle. I've also never capsized in overly rough waters.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:08 am 
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CRB wrote:
If you mean that you're concerned about 280lbs on a Hobie Wave, I meant that I can barely right one myself at 140lbs, not 280lbs.


Yes, I thought from your initial post that you meant the two of you together could not right the Wave.

CRB wrote:
My friend and I weigh around 280lbs, each at 140lbs. My friend and I can barely right a Hobie Wave.


Other things to consider - if you're not large enough to right the boat, you may also have issues handling the boat. Specifically, raising the mast. The mast on the 18 is MUCH larger and heavier than a Wave mast. Also, moving the boat around on the beach will be a challenge as it is much heavier than a Wave as well. Both of these can be overcome, but honestly, I think you may be better off with a H16.

sm


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:32 pm 
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srm wrote:
Other things to consider - if you're not large enough to right the boat, you may also have issues handling the boat. Specifically, raising the mast. The mast on the 18 is MUCH larger and heavier than a Wave mast. Also, moving the boat around on the beach will be a challenge as it is much heavier than a Wave as well. Both of these can be overcome, but honestly, I think you may be better off with a H16.


Funny story - I actually bought a Hobie 18 Magnum the other day, and I agree about the mast being very large. However, I have some good friends who can help me rig it. I grabbed a friend and his dad, and we easily got the mast up in a test rigging and then actually took the boat for a test sail the next day to see what needs to be done during the Winter, with no problems getting the mast up again.

Getting the the mast up and down isn't a challenge for next Summer (and the ones to follow) as I leave the mast up when the boat is stored.

But other than that, I'm going to be safe and I guess have to make a pole that can hide somewhere easily on the boat.

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- Cameron B.

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1985 Hobie 18 Magnum


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:01 am 
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Congratulations on your new 18! It's a crazy-fun boat and you're going to have a blast.
Just chiming in: I enjoy single-handing my Hobie 18 when winds are light, and I weigh just under 200lbs. I can't right the boat by myself using my elastic righting line, and I've exhausted myself trying. It's a bit dangerous going out by yourself unless you're on a lake with help available. (My lake isn't that big, and there are always other boats on it. Someone giving the end of the mast a toss while I'm pulling does the trick.) So if you're going out by yourself, please do come up with one device or another. You'll need it.
Just for future readers, I disagree that a Hobie 16 is a better choice. I've sailed both and I think everything happens a little quicker on a 16: it heels quicker, it pitchpoles quicker. The 18 is considerably heavier, but that doesn't matter when the boat is on its side. The 18 mast is two feet longer, but much of that difference evaporates because the 16 tramp is on stilts to begin with.
A must for either boat: go over your mast and rub a little silicone over every rivet and joint to seal water out. It'll float that way. I disagree with previous opinion, getting water in your mast kills your chances of righting the boat. Even a gallon of water is rough to lift if it's at the end of a 28' mast. If your boat turtles, you've got problems.
Go get 'em!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:21 pm 
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SabresfortheCup wrote:
I could see that being wholly more successful than slinging the bag over your shoulder and trying to fill it and hoist it up while hiking out. I also never realized that a righting bag could be so effective.

As far as turtling is concerned, I've capsized my H18 at least a half dozen times, and even pitchpoled it once, and never had a problem with turtling. It gets close if you sit on the top hull after a capsize, but if you jump off it always ends up laying comfortably on it's side. Even sitting on it's side for 5+ minutes, it's never even shown a hint of wanting to turtle. However, my mast is the original all aluminum mast, without a comptip, so that may be why my boat doesn't turtle. I've also never capsized in overly rough waters.

Trying to fill and hold the bag with one hand, while hiking with the other is a guaranteed FAIL. A full bag weighs 80lbs. With the purchase, you kneel on the hull, fill the bag, then hoist & cleAt it. You do not have to hold any of the bag weight. It is paramount to hoist it high enough so that when you hike, the bag is still out of the water, otherwise you negate the weight in the bag. I hoist it so the bag straps are neck level. Then you simply stand in front of the bag, get the straps over one shoulder, & hike out. You need to experiment & place a knot so that it is where you need it when planked horizontal. You can also wrap a turn of the line around your hook, that allows you to hang for the short time it takes to let water drain, without burning up your arms.
I splashed the boat twice in good winds, with an original al AL mast, & leapt clear as the mast hit the water. The wind pushing on the tramp made the mast/sail act like a chisel, it dove for China.
The second time, I floated, & watched it slowly go under, my Nacras neve do that. These hulls are totally dry, I'm wondering if the upper wing catches more wind, while the lower one creates drag & acts like a pivot. The upper wing would also add a few more lbs of over centre weight.


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