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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:40 am 
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Location: Ocala, FL
If you have a standard H18 (or sx and want a modern spin) and have thought about going with a spin, post up.

Unlike a typical Group Buy you don't have to wait and get on a list. Chip is taking orders as they come so just get in touch with him through Whirlwind Sails if you want to join the party.

I posted this over on The Beach Cats as well
http://www.thebeachcats.com/forums/view ... 0#pid59297

EDIT,
We are going with an F18 inspired spin designed by Chip Buck, a former Hobie sail designer, from Whirlwind Sails http://www.whirlwindsails.com
Luff is around 25.5'
The spin is made from Challenge Fibermax 44 .75oz fabric, http://www.challengesailcloth.com/fibermax/
We can choose any color we want. FL stands for fluorescent
Image

Image


Discount will be 15% if we get 5 or more orders. We are already at 10% off from the initial few orders
Standard H18 - $850-15%= $722.50
SX H18 - $900-15%= $765

Lead time is 4-6 weeks

I know me and Kaos already have orders in for a few sails so it's go time, lets speed these boats up!

-----Rigging Compiling Space----- (continually updated as I have time and suggestions are made)

Hardware
--2 57mm Harken Ratchamatic blocks attached to shroud chain plate or hull lip. Note that the new T2 soft attach Ratchamatics do not appear to have an adjustable engagement like the Ratchamatic Carbo.
--1-3 29mm(H348) turning blocks lashed to front/rear beam. See photos below.
--1 micro(H224) or 29mm block(H348) for halyard at top of mast
--2 Cam Cleats for spin sheet(H365), no eyestrap. Useful for light air, not necessary as you could hand hold the sheet the whole time if you wanted to.
--1 cleat for halyard line, any style, mounting location can be on front beam or the mast. A swivel cam on the starboard side of the beam seems to be preferred so you can hoist from any point of the tramp.
--1 29mm carbo block(H348) with spring(H097) and eye strap(H073), or buy all as one for a little more(H349) for tack end of pole.
--Method to attach pole to front beam. One option is to attach a H18 mast gooseneck to the front beamand put a fitting on the pole.
--Multiple eye straps and rivets for pole attachment depending on setup. Try and use as many soft attachments as possible by wraping line around pole and using eye strap for support instead of relying on rivet strength. The walls of the pole are thin.

Snuffer Specific Hardware
--1 traveler pulley pair(H353/H232) to add between spin halyard and spin tack line, or at 50% the cost, a H3271 lead ring which I will be using and just run both lines through to act like a sister block.
--1 29mm carbo block(H348) with spring(H097) and eye strap(H073), or buy all as one for a little more(H349) riveted to front beam a few inches to the right of halyard cleat cleat. Halyard returns from tack/halyard ring to this block and then up the mast.
--1-2 micro blocks(H224) added to tramp lacing or hiking grommets to provide access to halyard. See images below

Pole Setup
--12ft windsurf mast/aluminum pipe, attachment point will be between 11-12ft
--Dyneema (Samson Amsteel) bridle wires/line for pole. 1 set to mid pole, one set to attachment point at end of pole. Both attached to existing bridle plate or still holes in the tip of the hull lip for a better control angle to the pole end.
--If making a snuffer Chip estimated a 8.5' bag if running 2 dousing points on the sail.

Line
--Halyard 5mm (Tiger uses 86') Ideally something with a low stretch dyneema/spectra core since the length will be long. Strip any poly sheathing where halyard runs up the sail.
--Tack Line 5-6mm, 5.5 meters estimated for snuffer setup
--Spin Sheet, 8mm ideally lightweight non water absorbing line, I'm using "Robline FSE Dinghy Light XLF" (Tiger uses 51')
--Upper mast tang line, dyneema (Samson Amsteel)**ft

-----Instructional video/photo/setup section-----

Bag Launch Setup
Unlike a snuffer launch which rigs the tack line to operate with the halyard you will need a separate cleat for the halyard and tack line. Before sailing you already have your sheet line run around the front of the forestay and back to the sail. To launch, you first pull the tack of the sail out to the end of the pole and cleat the line. Then hoist the sail. I believe you normally would mount a clam cleat vertically to the mast for the halyard and another one to the beam for the tack line.

Snuffer Setup
As seen in the video below once setup the sail is completely housed in the snuffer bag with the sheets, tack, and halyard all going into the hoop and resting with the sail. The halyard is essentially one continuous loop as seen in the diagram photos below. It is tied to the head of the sail with the other end tied to the highest douse point of the sail. You can hoist or douse by pulling the halyard one way or the other at will. The halyard is run through a lead ring shared with the tack line so once the halyard is tensioned the tack of the sail is automatically sucked out to the tack block of the pole and then the head of the sail continues up the mast. When hoisting or dousing the sail the halyard line will be moving past the sail very quickly and can generate a lot of heat. Consider stripping the poly covering of the halyard line, or buying a non poly line, along the length of the sail where it runs through the dousing points to reduce the chance of burning the sail.

There is no magic to the setup of the bag itself as all you have to do is run the halyard line straight through the bag and up onto the tramp utilizing whichever method you prefer for allowing access to the line.

It is possible to DIY your own snuffer if you have some fiberglass and light sewing skills. A small pool noodle wrapped in masking tap should make a nice fiberglass mold for the ring of the snuffer. If you use woven fiberglass cloth it would probably be possible to sand a smooth finished surface with just a few coats of appliance epoxy from Home Depot on it. You want this to have a nice radius to allow the sail the easiest path possible into the bag. It will be mostly riding around the rear half of the ring.

Ideally use a waterproof fabric for the bag to help keep the spin dry since it will be hanging off the pole and be low enough to eat some waves. If you are running 2 dousing points on your spin as I have you will need around an 8.5' long bag. Still looking into what sort of diameter / taper is usually run on the bag. You can get an idea from the image below.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image




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Last edited by TAMUmpower on Tue May 31, 2016 10:55 am, edited 48 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:19 pm 
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Oh, the temptation. Can't commit right now, as I'm looking at other boats to buy so have to mind the cash flow, but I also have serious spinnaker envy when I see them. I'd be very interested at less than $1k, for something that can be flown on a furler rather than carry a bag (I think?). In over my head here, but being sensible is no fun.
Oh, and by the way mine is an SX.

Will be watching this space.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:01 pm 
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Chriscritchett wrote:
Oh, the temptation. Can't commit right now, as I'm looking at other boats to buy so have to mind the cash flow, but I also have serious spinnaker envy when I see them. I'd be very interested at less than $1k, for something that can be flown on a furler rather than carry a bag (I think?). In over my head here, but being sensible is no fun.
Oh, and by the way mine is an SX.

Will be watching this space.


There may be another SX interested. Whirlwind is in the lead currently as its a modern design and priced well. We would get a discount from the listed prices. I'll post when I know more. Well less than 1000

They have both standard and SX spins. I've spoken with the designer and the standard H18 spin is designed after the F18, I'll make sure the SX is the same and not a copy of the old stock SX parachute.

http://www.whirlwindsails.com/store/p23 ... naker.html
http://www.whirlwindsails.com/store/p28 ... naker.html

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:08 pm 
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The SX spin from Chip is cut fairly flat, not like the old bedsheets.
A newer F18 spin is flatter.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:28 pm 
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Location: Jersey Shore
I would be inclined to purchase a spinnaker if the Hobie class association would adopt a one design spinnaker fleet for the 18. It seems like the 18 would be an excellent entry level platform for spinaker racing and allow for a reasonably priced package without the arms race associated with formula racing. I realize that the class association's standpoint is that this would likely segment and therefore destroy the racing class altogether, but in most areas, the class has dissolved already anyway.

sm


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:51 pm 
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What SRM said:

I have a spin set created by Jeremy, using stock parts - the Tiger spin pole, mid-pole snuffer, and a flat cut spin similar to a Tiger's as made by Chip.

Other than drilling two holes in the mast track (scary), it was all plug and play.

I can gladly email pictures after tax season, May 1.

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1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947 "In Theory..."
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:30 pm 
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srm wrote:
I would be inclined to purchase a spinnaker if the Hobie class association would adopt a one design spinnaker fleet for the 18. It seems like the 18 would be an excellent entry level platform for spinaker racing and allow for a reasonably priced package without the arms race associated with formula racing. I realize that the class association's standpoint is that this would likely segment and therefore destroy the racing class altogether, but in most areas, the class has dissolved already anyway.

sm


I was thinking the same thing about getting an agreed design. So how would one go about getting agreement on a "class legal" spinnaker design? Or at least a Class Association agreed design. If that is not feasible, my thought was to get Chip a Whirlwind to make us a Florida Class Hobie 18 Spinnaker. Meaning if you call and order the Florida Hobie 18 spinnaker it would be the same as the 5 or so we will be ordering. There by having everyone have the same sail in our area, until such time agreement could be reached. That last thing this boat needs is a silly spinnaker design war, when we have enough trouble getting 5 boats to show up anywhere.

My boats and sails are over 30 years old, I really do not think the design is worth worry too much about, as long as they are all the same. I do think though that with some new excitement, we might get some old H18's out of some back yards and playing again.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:40 pm 
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i am interested. please keep updates coming.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:52 pm 
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gino wrote:
i am interested. please keep updates coming.


Awesome

John Lunn wrote:
What SRM said:

I have a spin set created by Jeremy, using stock parts - the Tiger spin pole, mid-pole snuffer, and a flat cut spin similar to a Tiger's as made by Chip.



Nice, yea I figured we can all collaborate on the setup since a lot of information on the setup is spread all over the internet with many broken web links.

I have 2 T2 ratchamatics on the way and have a possible source for a discounted carbon 40 windsurf poles that I'm going to check out this weekend. I plan on using a H18 boom gooseneck bracket on the front beam as an attachment point. For a snuffer I know how to sew so I plan on making my own bag and am working on a way to fiberglass a ring similar to a SNU.

Kaos wrote:
I was thinking the same thing about getting an agreed design. So how would one go about getting agreement on a "class legal" spinnaker design? Or at least a Class Association agreed design. If that is not feasible, my thought was to get Chip a Whirlwind to make us a Florida Class Hobie 18 Spinnaker. Meaning if you call and order the Florida Hobie 18 spinnaker it would be the same as the 5 or so we will be ordering. There by having everyone have the same sail in our area, until such time agreement could be reached. That last thing this boat needs is a silly spinnaker design war, when we have enough trouble getting 5 boats to show up anywhere.

My boats and sails are over 30 years old, I really do not think the design is worth worry too much about, as long as they are all the same. I do think though that with some new excitement, we might get some old H18's out of some back yards and playing again.


Yea in the end if we all just try and run similar stuff, boom, we have a class. Official or not. And in the end having an extra sail and the ability to play with some of the newer boats, I think the expense is relatively low.

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Last edited by TAMUmpower on Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:10 am 
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I just got my H18, so it's not too much to say that adding a spin is a bit more than I could handle or afford right now, but that being said I am still interested and will be keeping an eye on this thread. So keep it user/newbie friendly if you could.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:13 am 
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0rion85 wrote:
I just got my H18, so it's not too much to say that adding a spin is a bit more than I could handle or afford right now, but that being said I am still interested and will be keeping an eye on this thread. So keep it user/newbie friendly if you could.


Do iiiiiitttt! :D

Ok so heres the deal, I'll edit my first post with this information as well.

We are going with an F18 inspired spin designed by Chip Buck, a former Hobie sail designer, from Whirlwind Sails http://www.whirlwindsails.com
The spin is made from Challenge Fibermax 44 .75oz fabric, http://www.challengesailcloth.com/fibermax/
You can choose any color you want. FL stands for fluorescent
Image

Discount will be 15% if we get 5 or more orders.
Standard H18 - $850-15%= $722.50
SX H18 - $900-15%= $765

Lead time is 4-6 weeks

I believe we already have 5, after that he said we can place orders individually. I don't know how long that deal extends for currently but that can be handled later.

So for now if you are interested and want to be in on the first order, go ahead and start figuring out your color so we can get a list going. I figure we will probably be ready to go in about a week or so give or take.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:48 am 
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Great job on putting this together for us.

For folks who may be thinking about this, I would go simple at first. Plan to launch from the tramp. This will make your adding a spinnaker to the boat much less expensive. Find an old windsurfer (fiberglass) mast. Add a few blocks, add a halyard and you are on your way. Once you find that you need the added speed in races of a snuffer, then you could consider that investment. In the short term the objective is to join in on the new fun.

Cheers


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:06 pm 
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I may choose this opportunity to upgrade and buy a new spin!
Thanks for putting this one together.

Launching a spin? While I have seen videos of launching from a turtle bag on the tramp, I cannot imagine anything else than the convenience of a mid-pole snuffer system.
Yes, it is pricey, but you can make your own 'mouth' if $ are a concern.
How much room is there on the tramp? So adding a turtle bag looks like it would be a challenge.
It's not the setting/raising, but the lowering I am talking about.
When the wind pipes up, and you want to douse and snuff QUICKLY, the mid-pole is lightening fast.
However, not everyone races - I understand that.

For newbies, remember to keep your mainsheet tight, to act as a backstay.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:39 pm 
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This is intriguing to me, but I'm very curious about how the setup will work for the spin pole, bridles & stays, tang, halyard, sheets & snuffer system (as someone who's never sailed with a spin on a catamaran before). I suppose I'll study the tiger diagrams to get a bit of an idea. It seems a little more complicated to me than just buying a spin, chopped down windsurfing mast and a few ropes & wires. I know I've heard that Jeremy's setup required the pole to be pre-bent down, otherwise it could flex and break.

While I'd really love to try out a spin on an H18, I'm not sure I can justify the investment on a boat with hulls that seem to be getting softer every year. However, on the subject of H18's getting together to race, I'm curious if anyone on this forum races their H18 in fleet 204's Madcatter regatta in May? I'm thinking about trying it out, but so far they don't have any 18's registered for the event.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:58 pm 
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SabresfortheCup wrote:
This is intriguing to me, but I'm very curious about how the setup will work for the spin pole, bridles & stays, tang, halyard, sheets & snuffer system (as someone who's never sailed with a spin on a catamaran before). I suppose I'll study the tiger diagrams to get a bit of an idea. It seems a little more complicated to me than just buying a spin, chopped down windsurfing mast and a few ropes & wires. I know I've heard that Jeremy's setup required the pole to be pre-bent down, otherwise it could flex and break.

While I'd really love to try out a spin on an H18, I'm not sure I can justify the investment on a boat with hulls that seem to be getting softer every year. However, on the subject of H18's getting together to race, I'm curious if anyone on this forum races their H18 in fleet 204's Madcatter regatta in May? I'm thinking about trying it out, but so far they don't have any 18's registered for the event.


For sure you need to at least have a clue what you are doing but it's not the most complicated thing ever. That's what we are all here for and I hope this thread becomes a good comprehensive source for adding a spin to a H18 since a lot of information is spread around with tons of broken links. I'm sure many of the people getting a spin here will be posting up and bouncing ideas off each other so don't worry this will be a group effort in trying to make the whole process as understandable as possible.

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