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 Post subject: New Hobie Wings
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:24 am 
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New Hobie Wings. If a company were to produce a wing like the magnum style. How many Hobie owners would want to buy a pair with all fittings for around $1000?
We could build a set for the 18 or the 16. Your responses are requested.


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 Post subject: Re: New Hobie Wings
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:19 pm 
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While I can certainly appreciate the expense that would go into designing and manufacturing aftermarket wings, it wouldn't be an investment I would consider making for my 30-year-old discontinued H18 (which only cost me $2,000 w/trailer, sail box and beach wheels to begin with). Having said that, if I was buying a new boat, I would add wings for sure. My $.02.


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 Post subject: Re: New Hobie Wings
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:55 pm 
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Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
Mounting a set of wings, Magnums or SX18 wings, opens up a whole new world.
That's why I am so happy with my 23 year old SX18, which is like new.

Never mind that the boat is now out of production, just ask yourself why so many H18's are still around......and still sailing well.

I have a 'spare set' of SX18 wings.....in great shape....complete and ready to go, grey mesh tramps, all parts including slugs, studs, nylocks, washers, anchor tabs, butterflies, rear leg supports and brackets, the whole package. US $1,750. Pick up in Ottawa Ontario Canada.
Or after May 1, I can deliver for gas to Montreal, Toronto, Muskoka, Barrie or Burlington or Syracuse, in other words, not further than 3 hours driving from Ottawa. eMail me offline at lunnjohn at magma dot ca. For those far away, I'll build a shipping crate for a small fee, shipping is your cost.

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1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


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 Post subject: Re: New Hobie Wings
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:23 pm 
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Location: Greenville SC
The answer is not too many, Magnums are available for that price used. But its not like they sell like hot cakes. Hobie 18's are very old news, and I think you will find that most of the people who want wings that badly, will have them. Most of us want wings, but will not pay that kinda price for them.

Why are you considering the magnums? I would consider the SX wings easier to build and would easily be more desirable.

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 Post subject: Re: New Hobie Wings
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:44 pm 
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Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
Like, Bacho, I hear you....however....
although I am an accountant, and spend most of my day doing financial statements and taxes, I once did the books and helped run a large metal fab shop. They did mostly Mag and Alum, which (as you may know) have unique properties, especially when 'working' the metal. T6066, when annealed and hardened is light and strong. Ask Matt Bounds, who is an engineer, and others more knowledgeable than I. CentralMichiganSailor, want to chip in?

To replicate SX18 wings would cost a bundle to set up, jigs, castings, goodness knows what else. Royalty Fees?

Magnums would be cheaper, as there are less parts, but more welding. Tube and MIG/TIG welding are specialty crafts. So if one had a workshop, complete with annealing ovens, yes, the fixed costs have already been incurred. However, the additional costs of setting up the jigs....and the price of Alum and labour today.....

My thinking is that if Hobie had a large inventory of the castings used in the wings, then it might a proposition for someone to 'build for the after-market'. Until then, there is only the 'used parts' market place. At $1,000 a set, I'm sure a fabricator would be able to sell 20, 30 or even 50 sets of wings.

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1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


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 Post subject: Re: New Hobie Wings
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:05 pm 
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Location: Greenville SC
John Lunn C A wrote:
Like, Bacho, I hear you....however....
although I am an accountant, and spend most of my day doing financial statements and taxes, I once did the books and helped run a large metal fab shop. They did mostly Mag and Alum, which (as you may know) have unique properties, especially when 'working' the metal. T6066, when annealed and hardened is light and strong. Ask Matt Bounds, who is an engineer, and others more knowledgeable than I. CentralMichiganSailor, want to chip in?

To replicate SX18 wings would cost a bundle to set up, jigs, castings, goodness knows what else. Royalty Fees?

Magnums would be cheaper, as there are less parts, but more welding. Tube and MIG/TIG welding are specialty crafts. So if one had a workshop, complete with annealing ovens, yes, the fixed costs have already been incurred. However, the additional costs of setting up the jigs....and the price of Alum and labour today.....

My thinking is that if Hobie had a large inventory of the castings used in the wings, then it might a proposition for someone to 'build for the after-market'. Until then, there is only the 'used parts' market place. At $1,000 a set, I'm sure a fabricator would be able to sell 20, 30 or even 50 sets of wings.


I am gonna build a set in the next few weeks and test this theory myself. I will make them for my N20 however the Hobie 18 version would be very minimally different. I have all of the knowledge and tooling to do this, I have built several roll cages for my Jeeps over the years. I believe with little doubt that the DIY'er would have it easier with the SX style as the "seat" and Legs can be built individually with a simple jig to weld them together.

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 Post subject: Re: New Hobie Wings
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:08 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2003 7:14 pm
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Location: West MI
As a Engineer with metal fabricating and tool making experience I looked into building a set at one time. The cost was not cheap for just the materials, and by the time I had any labor/time into them the price was very high, over $1000. I found my magnum wings on the internet for $350 and had a buddy truck them from the east coast for free. Devine intervention or luck, your call :D

The reason I still sail a Hobie 18 is because of the wings. 8)

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DVL 1989 H-18 Worlds Boat, Magnum Wings & Spinnaker

dale.vanlopik"at"att"dot"net


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 Post subject: Re: New Hobie Wings
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:49 pm 
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Location: Greenville SC
A PM to Matt sounds like there is a very limited supply of castings out there. That would now have to be machined from solid stock.

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2010 AHPC C2 #218


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 Post subject: Re: New Hobie Wings
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:12 pm 
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ldjfilm wrote:
New Hobie Wings. If a company were to produce a wing like the magnum style. How many Hobie owners would want to buy a pair with all fittings for around $1000?
We could build a set for the 18 or the 16. Your responses are requested.


How about a set of the Hobie Europe "Sport Wings"? I would love a set of those made to fit my H18.
I use my SX wings a lot as a back rest and for hiking out. I like the simplicity and light weight of the sport wings, and you can still hike out above the waves. I'd probably buy a set.


http://2010.archive.hobiecat.com/media/ ... _wings.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: New Hobie Wings
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:55 am 
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Let me rephrase the question;
If all of you had your wings taken tomorrow, how many would purchase a 'new' set of wings for around $1000? Is it worth the cost?


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 Post subject: Re: New Hobie Wings
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:31 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:50 am
Posts: 379
flaco wrote:
ldjfilm wrote:
New Hobie Wings. If a company were to produce a wing like the magnum style. How many Hobie owners would want to buy a pair with all fittings for around $1000?
We could build a set for the 18 or the 16. Your responses are requested.


How about a set of the Hobie Europe "Sport Wings"? I would love a set of those made to fit my H18.
I use my SX wings a lot as a back rest and for hiking out. I like the simplicity and light weight of the sport wings, and you can still hike out above the waves. I'd probably buy a set.


http://2010.archive.hobiecat.com/media/ ... _wings.pdf


Those Sport- and Comfort-style wings look sweet, but I'm guessing engineering something similar for the H18 would present some real design challenges. For starters, I don't believe there's a way to mount them inside the H18 crossbar ends like they are designed to with the FX Ones, Foxes, etc. Perhaps somebody could figure out a way to mount them on top of the crossbars instead......while accounting for the rounded and bowed nature of the things. :?: :?:

There's a Bimare 18 for sale over on Beachcats.com with some neat "Sport-style" wings that I've never seen before. Here's a link to the listing:

http://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans/p11757-2002-bimare-18ht.html


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 Post subject: Re: New Hobie Wings
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:05 pm 
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Location: Greenville SC
Aluminum tubing is out of the question for SX wings, the price of raw materials passed $1,000 just trying to build the seat part. However using aluminum pipe is an option. I am looking at about $500 in pipe to build the wings (covers not in this price). Using the formula for calculating hand-rail loadings, The wings would be safe for just under 350lbs trapped off of them, and about 700lbs sitting on them. (this is for the 8' beam distance on my N20, the H18 would have more capacity) Going by the OSHA loading for 1.5" schedule 40 pipe. I am going ahead on the project, will keep everyone updated.

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 Post subject: Re: New Hobie Wings
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:08 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
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Location: Jersey Shore
Before you go ahead with using sch 40 aluminum pipe, you may want to run some calcs on the weight numbers. The wall thickness on pipe is likely to be considerably thicker than the tubing that Hobie used, so will probably be noticably heavier (sch 40 pipe is .145" wall thickness).

Also, the weight capacity for trapping off the wings would be higher than the capacity for sitting on them, not less, because when you're trapping off the wing, the majority of your weight is being supported by the mast (through the trap wires).

sm


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 Post subject: Re: New Hobie Wings
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:31 pm 
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Location: Greenville SC
SRM, your right on that. They will likely be heavier, but I am unsure as the mounting I have in mind uses a different lay-out. I could switch to schedule 10 for the interior tubes and save weight (and cost) there. In the end. 1.5" schedule 40 is .94lbs per foot, 11 gauge 2" tube (that I think hobie used) is .85 per foot. We are talking 2.5 pounds (per wing) difference. Sure, it adds up but is it worth $700 to get rid of 5-7 pounds? Not for me, Wings will not be on when racing anyways.

For that weight, I wanted the max weight of a person standing on ONE of the tubes not supported by trap wires. The tubing is rated not to fail with 350 lbs standing on it directly. Sitting on the wings, you have your load across both tubes. This is not a number on the wing mounting failing, this is about the tube deforming.

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 Post subject: Re: New Hobie Wings
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:31 am 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
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Location: Jersey Shore
Where are you sourcing your tubing cost from, and how much do you expect you'll need? Just for reference, onlinemetals.com has a price of $50 for an 8 foot long piece of 2"OD x .125" wall 6061-T6 round tube. So, not sure how you're coming up with $1k in tubing alone.

Also, my point about the weight was that you had said previously that the max weight while trapping was 350lb and the max weight while sitting was 700lb. But actually, the max weight that you can have out on the wings will always be higher when trapping than when sitting because when you're trapping, most of your weight is being supported by the trap wire. Also, the the max weight that the wing can support is not based on tube dimensions alone. It is also dependent on the distance of the span between the supports.

Another thing to think about is if you're going to have the wing assemblies anodized.

sm


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