H18 weather helm

Hi folks,

I'm a bit worried about my H18's lack of weather helm. I sailed my H14 for years, secure in the knowledge that if anything happened to me, the boat would immediately head-up on its own.

Now, on my new H18, that's not the case. The tiller feels very neutral - to the point that I can pretty much set it down while sailng. Last time I capsized and got the boat back up, it took off screaming, with me dangling underneath from the dolphin striker. I had to hand-over-hand my way underneath the tramp to the back of the boat where I could steer into the wind from the water and climb back on. I don't like that situation at all, and would like to add some weather helm. Our little lake can get a bit crowded, and I'm afraid that one of these days my freshly-righted speed-demon will take off and plow into a power boat that was nice enough to stop and ask if I needed help.

I have the old style rudder system, so I can't easily rake the rudders back (back meaning tips to stern, not in under the boat). Has anyone found a way to do this on the old-style rudders, short of re-drilling the blades? I've seen the Hobie kits to add the adjustable cam-stop, but I believe these are only for the older, non-adjustable H14/16 rudder castings, and not the old H18 castings with metal cams (is this true?)

The other option would be more mast rake, but I didn't think mast rake was desirable on the H18. On the other hand, I haven't seen much disccusion about it. Where do you guys all set your mast? My shrouds are already pretty far down in the adjusters - I think they're the third hole up from the bottom? For what it's worth, my jib is pretty old and the leach is a bit stretched out, so I'd rather keep my mast as far forward as possible to keep the leach from flapping constantly (even moving the fairleads up doesn't seem to help). I can certainly put up with a loose jib leach thought if it means my boat won't crash into something if I fall off of it.

Does anyone else notice significantly less weather helm on the 18? Is it just something H18 sailors learn to live with, or are there other ways add weather helm beyond mast and rudder rake? Thanks for any and all replies!

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-Bill

Conesus Lake, NY
1976 Hobie 14

I'd say rake the mast. The H18 likes it aft too. I recall being 1-2 holes from the bottom of the shroud adjuster.

_________________
Matt Miller
Former - Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA
(Retired 11/7/2022)

I agree with Matt, rake it back. My boat has heavy weather helm when the sides are 3 holes from the bottom and the front 2 holes from bottom. If I drop the tiller she will quickly go head to wind.

Thanks Matt and Mike,

I know this is an old thread, but I thought I'd ask some follow-ups. I only have the 14 in the water this year so I'm going from memory, but I'm pretty sure I had the shrouds in the third hole from the bottom, so I can't move them much lower. I can certainly try to move them down to the bottom hole, but I'm not sure how much it will help, given my complete lack of weather helm. Is there anything besides rudder and mast rake that could affect weather helm?

If I need to rake the mast even more, what would happen if i removed the twist toggles on each side and attached the adjusters directly to the anchor pins? Do they serve any purpose other than 90 deg. rotation and an extra 1.5 inches of length? I can align the anchor pins anyway I choose, so alignment is not an issue.

This boat has another odd behavior I wanted to run by everybody: In heavier air, the boat does NOT want to turn into the wind when I try to tack. On several occasions when I've been out in heavy air (heavier than I'm really comfortable with on this boat), I just plain can't get the boat to turn into and through the wind to tach. It's as if the boat has "anti-" weather helm - I actually feel pressure - and lots of it - on the tiller to turn back off the wind. Even with the rudders pulled full over, the boat keeps plowing along on its course, refusing to turn up wind. I've had this happen to me both with the jib out, and with the jib furled. This is extremely inconvenient, as jibing is the last thing I want to do in heavy air. Has anyone ever seen this sort of behavior before? I've never heard of a sailboat that didn't want to turn up-wind. Is it just another result of my lack of weather helm?

Actually, I half suspect that the rudder holes may be drilled improperly on this boat. While fixing them up 2 years ago and adding nylon washers to get rid of slop, I noticed an additional hole in the rudder that had been filled at some point - almost as if the rudders were used on a 14 or 16 at some point, then filled and re-drilled for the 18. Is there anywhere I can download a template for rudder holes for different boats to check the holes? This is an '80 18 with the older rudder castings (are the rudder holes the same for the old- and new-style 18 castings?). This could certaily explain the weather helm, but could it explain my taching problems?

Thanks again for your help - this site is an absolute treasure trove of Hobie information.

_________________
-Bill

Conesus Lake, NY
1976 Hobie 14

Thanks Matt and Mike,

I know this is an old thread, but I thought I'd ask some follow-ups. I only have the 14 in the water this year so I'm going from memory, but I'm pretty sure I had the shrouds in the third hole from the bottom, so I can't move them much lower. I can certainly try to move them down to the bottom hole, but I'm not sure how much it will help, given my complete lack of weather helm. Is there anything besides rudder and mast rake that could affect weather helm?

If I need to rake the mast even more, what would happen if i removed the twist toggles on each side and attached the adjusters directly to the anchor pins? Do they serve any purpose other than 90 deg. rotation and an extra 1.5 inches of length? I can align the anchor pins anyway I choose, so alignment is not an issue.

This boat has another odd behavior I wanted to run by everybody: In heavier air, the boat does NOT want to turn into the wind when I try to tack. On several occasions when I've been out in heavy air (heavier than I'm really comfortable with on this boat), I just plain can't get the boat to turn into and through the wind to tach. It's as if the boat has "anti-" weather helm - I actually feel pressure - and lots of it - on the tiller to turn back off the wind. Even with the rudders pulled full over, the boat keeps plowing along on its course, refusing to turn up wind. I've had this happen to me both with the jib out, and with the jib furled. This is extremely inconvenient, as jibing is the last thing I want to do in heavy air. Has anyone ever seen this sort of behavior before? I've never heard of a sailboat that didn't want to turn up-wind. Is it just another result of my lack of weather helm?

Actually, I half suspect that the rudder holes may be drilled improperly on this boat. While fixing them up 2 years ago and adding nylon washers to get rid of slop, I noticed an additional hole in the rudder that had been filled at some point - almost as if the rudders were used on a 14 or 16 at some point, then filled and re-drilled for the 18. Is there anywhere I can download a template for rudder holes for different boats to check the holes? This is an '80 18 with the older rudder castings (are the rudder holes the same for the old- and new-style 18 castings?). This could certaily explain the weather helm, but could it explain my taching problems?

Thanks again for your help - this site is an absolute treasure trove of Hobie information.

_________________
-Bill

Conesus Lake, NY
1976 Hobie 14

Just a quick update (sorry for the double-post, I'm not sure why it showed up twice),

After my last post, I found the rudder rake FAQ and the drilling template. I didn't take the time to print it out yet, but I took a quick look at the rudders and template, and it looks as if they are drilled correctly for the "C" non-adjustable Hobie 18 rudders.

Any other thoughts on what might be causing neutral helm, or severe Lee helm in heavy air while trying to tach?

Thanks again!

_________________
-Bill

Conesus Lake, NY
1976 Hobie 14

neutral helm is mast rake and or rudder rake. my mast is raked way back and the rudders fight me. I have the rudders toe'd to limit drag on the windward rudder. I believe your heavy wind issue to be a sail trim problem but knowing you sail a uni ( ie 14) I would think you know proper trim technique. Are you successful in tacking the 14 in heavy air or forced to jibe always?

Weather helm, as pointed out by others, is primarily determined by Mast Rake. That is, where the Centre of Effort is neutral to the Centre of Lateral Resistance, the helm will be neutral. (If this is gobbledegook to you, email me off line.) I think you will find that as you sheet in your main, the weather helm will harden up, and that is normal, as sheeting the main in tends to 'move' the centre of effort somewhat to the stern. Another way of saying the same thing is that as we sheet in the main, the 'balance' between the main and the jib goes in favour of the main.

Try playing with your traveller - try sailing with the main traveller 6" off centre, or 12" off centre, or 18" off centre, and see if that makes a difference.

Where do you set the jib traveller cars? Forward? Mid? Stern?
Where do you sit on the H18? By the shroud when beating? At the rear corner when running? Even at your 190 lbs, that weight has an impact on
boat trim.

What about sail controls? Downhaul, outhaul, batten tension and mast rotator? All of those affect sail draft, and draft determines Centre of Effort.

The beauty of the H18 is that it is extremely tunable. You may want to fool around with alternative settings to see what works for you. We find at our Club that many Hobie sailors haul in the sheets as tight as possible for ALL conditions, which does not always work well. Try shaping your sails and your boat balance according to conditions, especially in lighter winds. We also train all our cat sailors to NEVER cleat the mainsheet, unless they like swimming.

As a last resort, get your boss to send you on Professional Development training course to Ottawa, then finally, you and I can sail 24x7 together. We expect good winds this Fall. If not Ottawa, ask for 'volunteers' on the Forum who can take you sailing on their H18 in Kingston or Syracuse or Rochester or wherever. I think you are fine, you just need more mileage, something we can all do with.

_________________
2015 H16, with spin,
SOLD 1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947 "In Theory..."
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'

I don't think I have an answer specifically but just want to say howdy sailor since I am up in Pultneyville and not too far from you. I will discuss your situation with some of the experienced sailors for some technical advice and post anything worthwhile. But I can tell you from experience that the boat taking off like that is not unusal. When you consider that you went over becasue of a little weather. Every time I have capsized the boat takes off when righted. I am always carefull to point it up in the wind but somehow the jib gets recleated (I have these racing blocks) and things happen. Last time it was with three guys and 5 foot waves. Only one of us was able to get on quick enough. Plus I don't think a weather helm will stall a boat dependably. I have read too many accounts of boats getting in the wind. Speaking of weather- I also find it hard to point in heavy winds. Good advice has told me that its a matter of sheeting in. You would be surprised (possibly by the extreme power generated as opposed to your 14) how far you need and can point in heavy wind. The problem is the same rule applies - you need to be sheeted tighter than off the wind and get close to eye before you turn- Troulbe is you're hauling ass without sheeting in and you think you are already pointing up. You subconsciously may be releasing the main, which in turn lets you fall off a bit. Its hard to see the source of the wind, even as the water is now turbulent and your manhood is a little shaky. I can just imagine cranking the helm and imagining the boat just won't turn. Whats happened is you turned into the eye or more close to it- its a matter of degree. The boat is much more responsive and with that come the pedigree, thourgbred feel of uncontrolablity. Hope this doesn't sound preachy. Just my take. Stop in Pultneyville if you are around (we have about 4 18's-)

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keep the shiney side up