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 Post subject: H18SX vs Tornado
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:29 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 702
Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
Round the Buoys club racing on Weds evenings..... 21C, 4 - 6 knots and dying, intermittent rain-shower cells mostly to the south....

In between cells, the wind died, so we drifted out from the harbour... and we wondered if the RC would cancel racing.
Then the wind picked up, and we got a perfect start, beat perfectly, tacked the Rick White way, and caught every wind shift the way the guru's taught us. We beat two T's and a NACRA 20. High 5's to son Martin for his good eyes.

Funny thing happened at the upwind mark.... on opposite tacks, we gave a T room at the mark, he cut inside - missed the wind shift and stalled, by now we were inside him, and he started drifting back into us. No protests... and I managed to push him away by hand. Who should have done what?

The 2nd race was awful, don't ask. The wind died.... and by the time we got back, they had closed the kitchen in the Club House. KD at home. Can't wait for next week.

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1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


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 Post subject: Re: H18SX vs Tornado
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:02 am 
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Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 8:28 am
Posts: 744
Location: Clinton Lake, KS
The windward mark? Rounding to to port?


Port/Starboard rules apply..

Tacking inside the three boat circle costs you all of your rights. Unless you are playing by rules like the Extreme Sailing series and rounding windward mark to Starboard...

Ya ever played around with this?

http://game.finckh.net/indexe.htm


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 Post subject: Re: H18SX vs Tornado
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:04 am 
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Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 3:15 pm
Posts: 118
Location: Buffalo, NY
John,

Not entirely clear about the turn of events... it sounds like you were on the outside, then clear astern, and then came up on the inside, between him and the mark as he drifted back? I think technically you should have stayed on the outside, and were not entitled to mark room from him, if that was the case.

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Mike
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'79 H18 standard 'Rocketman II' sail #14921


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 Post subject: Re: H18SX vs Tornado
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:05 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:13 am
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Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
Will have my crew respond in detail when he gets in..... my description may have been too brief.

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1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


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 Post subject: Re: H18SX vs Tornado
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:59 am 
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Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
Correction - he cut outside, (turned wider than I did) which is why I selected inside, then he got caught by wind shift....

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1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


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 Post subject: Re: H18SX vs Tornado
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:14 am 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
Posts: 2591
Location: Jersey Shore
You need to provide more details on the incident - who was on what tack and when?

Generally speaking, it is just basic port/starboard rules at the windward mark rounding. If a boat on port tacks over to starboard within the 3-boat circle, they can not prevent a starboard tack boat from going around the mark and they can not force the starboard boat to go above a close hauled heading.

If you were on starboard laying the mark and he came across on port and then tacked above you onto starboard and then came down on you, that would be a windward/leeward situation and you, as the leeward boat, would have right of way. In addition, if he did his tack inside the 3 boat length circle, and you were overlapped inside of him, he would be required to give you mark room.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: H18SX vs Tornado
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:18 am 
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Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 8:28 am
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Location: Clinton Lake, KS
If he came in on port and tacked to starboard in the zone he has no rights until clear of the zone. None.

If the tack happened outside the zone there are other questions


Who was the port boat?

Sent from my stone tablet


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 Post subject: Re: H18SX vs Tornado
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:41 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:40 am
Posts: 413
Location: Metuchen NJ
agreed. if the other boat tacked inside 3 boat lengths of the mark, he gave up his rights and has to keep clear. also if he is overtaking from astern he also has to give way. if he stalls on his tack he has created an obstuction to your proper course.

a little known and widely misunderstood item on what is considered overlap:
say you approach the windward mark on starboard from the 5 o'clock position. a competitor also approaches on starboard ahead of you from the 4 or 3 o'clock position. because a line extension from his transom falls behind your bow, you obtained overlap... even if you are many, many boatlengths apart. the point is an overlap can be established even if you are quite far apart.

it sounds like your action was the Corinthian thing to do.
I too would like to know who was port & starboard in this case.

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'88 H18SE Arís


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 Post subject: Re: H18SX vs Tornado
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:06 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:13 am
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Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
Reply from my buddy is as follows:

"I was the T referred to below. My recollection of what happened is as follows.......

Both boats approached the leeward mark on port tack, fairly broad reach, very light wind. I was on the inside with overlap and the other boat gave me plenty of room to round the mark. I planned to simply harden up after rounding the mark which I tried to do but in the excitement I missed a sudden wind shift which put me head to wind just past the mark. I noted that the other boat had tacked and was attempting to pass between me and the mark which would have been fine if I had managed to simply harden up and had not started to drift backwards. The wind was quite light, barely enough to make way. I drifted back into the other boat as he tried to pass between me and the mark, was pushed off, and eventually ended up not only touching the mark but as the wind suddenly freshened at that moment managed to sail away on starboard tack with the mark line caught up in my rudder. By now the other boat was well clear. By the time I freed the line some 50 yards further on I felt that the whole mess was my fault in that I did not notice the wind shift at the critical moment."

My recollection is that we were on starboard tack (coming in from 4 o' clock), and he was on port tack (coming in from 8 o' clock).....

This is a good refresher on an interesting topic.... I like Chris's overlap explanation, thanks.

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1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


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 Post subject: Re: H18SX vs Tornado
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:39 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am
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Location: Jersey Shore
ronholm wrote:
If he came in on port and tacked to starboard in the zone he has no rights until clear of the zone. None.


This generalized statement is incorrect. There is no situation in a race where you have "no rights."

Rule 18.3 is the rule that comes into play when tacking inside the 3 length zone at the windward mark...

18.3 Tacking When Approaching a Mark
If two boats were approaching a mark on opposite tacks and one of
them changes tack, and as a result is subject to rule 13 in the zone
when the other is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter
apply. The boat that changed tack
(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to
avoid her or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on
the required side, and
(b) shall give mark-room if the other boat becomes overlapped
inside her.

Again, if you tack from port to starboard inside the 3 length zone, you DO have rights, but there are limitations on those rights. In essence, you can not force a boat that was already on starboard above close hauled and you must give that boat room to pass between you and the mark if they so choose.

If for example, you completed your tack inside the 3 boat length circle from port onto starboard and another boat was entering the zone on port, you would still have right of way over that boat.

As it turns out, this discussion is irrelevant in John's situation because his last post provided some clarification that this incident actually occurred at the leeward mark, not the windward mark.

So based on John's clarification, the room / 3-boat length rules go out the door because the boats had already rounded the leeward mark. It is a simple application of port/starboard. The tornado rounded the leeward mark on port, rounded up and went head-do wind (on port). John came across on starboard and the Tornado on port drifted back into him - tornado fouled H18. The Tornado then drifted back into the leeward mark and broke Rule 31 - foul #2.

sm


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 Post subject: Re: H18SX vs Tornado
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:49 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 8:28 am
Posts: 744
Location: Clinton Lake, KS
srm wrote:
ronholm wrote:
If he came in on port and tacked to starboard in the zone he has no rights until clear of the zone. None.


This generalized statement is incorrect. There is no situation in a race where you have "no rights."

Rule 18.3 is the rule that comes into play when tacking inside the 3 length zone at the windward mark...

18.3 Tacking When Approaching a Mark
If two boats were approaching a mark on opposite tacks and one of
them changes tack, and as a result is subject to rule 13 in the zone
when the other is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter
apply. The boat that changed tack
(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to
avoid her or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on
the required side, and
(b) shall give mark-room if the other boat becomes overlapped
inside her.

Again, if you tack from port to starboard inside the 3 length zone, you DO have rights, but there are limitations on those rights. In essence, you can not force a boat that was already on starboard above close hauled and you must give that boat room to pass between you and the mark if they so choose.

If for example, you completed your tack inside the 3 boat length circle from port onto starboard and another boat was entering the zone on port, you would still have right of way over that boat.

As it turns out, this discussion is irrelevant in John's situation because his last post provided some clarification that this incident actually occurred at the leeward mark, not the windward mark.

So based on John's clarification, the room / 3-boat length rules go out the door because the boats had already rounded the leeward mark. It is a simple application of port/starboard. The tornado rounded the leeward mark on port, rounded up and went head-do wind (on port). John came across on starboard and the Tornado on port drifted back into him - tornado fouled H18. The Tornado then drifted back into the leeward mark and broke Rule 31 - foul #2.

sm


Point well taken..... But on a Cat most of the time what you are saying means you have no rights.. :) If a Starboard Cat was coming in and had to alter course at all after you entered the Zone on port and tacked.. You chances of surviving a protest are slim to none.. near as I can tell the rules are specifically written to discourage that kind of move.

If ya both came in on port of course things are a little different... but even then your are limited... and in a bad spot.. It is a great way to lose places and a slow way to get around the mark.





My dumb question is this... I have twice in the last year ran into situations where the wind shifted to the point where what should have been a leeward gate actually became a windward course due to nearly 180 degree wind shifts. Seriously I have sailed upwind to A mark.. Rounded got 1/4 to 1/2 way back down and had to harden up and sail upwind to C mark.. In those rare situations do the leeward or windward mark rules apply?


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