Hobie Cat Forums

It is currently Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:16 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:03 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:13 am
Posts: 149
Location: Shepherd, Michigan
I just purchased an 84 H18 (pre-coleman production I believe as it has the older style stickers without a Coleman logo) that has had shroud plate updates but I am adding the crossbar anchor plate updates. Per other posts, it looks like I should also add some fiberglass cloth to the internal sides of the hulls where the plates bolt through. The current "patch" appears to be a piece of cloth about 4" wide by 6" tall and looks factory. FYI the hulls are in excellent - excellent condition with almost no lines even in the gel coat on the underside of the outside lip of the front crossbar and no soft spots anywhere...VERY VERY low time hulls on Michigan lakes only. I will sail under the same conditions - not racing but sometimes cruising with a full deck of people - a few dozen times each summer. It does not and has not had wings and I do not plan on adding them; but I do plan on double-trapezing when conditions allow. I will probably keep this cat for five to ten years before upgrading. My questions are as follows:



1. How big should they be and how many layers / weight of cloth should be added?

2. Do I need to use a solvent / cleaner to clean on the inside of the hulls before glassing?

3. I will need to install deck ports to access the aft crossbar. Should they go fore or aft of the bar?

4. Do I need to glass the rear crossbar hull sides or just the front?

5. Do I even really need to worry about glassing at all or is the anchor plate updates enough?

Thanks in advance for any help.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:02 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 662
Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
From the little that I've read on the Forum. . .

1. When the boats are manufactured, there is wax in the resin to allow for curing. Afterwards, (post-curing), the wax rises to the surface. So before you begin, sand everything where you are working, and wipe it down with acetone so that any fresh cloth will adhere.

2. As I recall, the problem years were 1984 - 1988. You may want to recheck your Serial #.

3. The rear hatch should go behind the rear cross bar, and will be a smaller (4") style. My suggestion is that if you are NOT using wings, why bother? If you wish to sail 'hard', go wave jumping etc, then you should reinforce the front cross bar. Not so sure about the rears, unless again, you are a wave jumper.

4. Use what we call canoe cloth, which I think is 4oz or 6 oz cloth. Anyone else out there know which is best?

5. Go easy on the hardener, and place a light bulb inside the hull to raise the temperatures and let the glass harden slowly, which will be stronger.

Sounds like a great winter project, enjoy.

_________________
1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:24 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:13 am
Posts: 149
Location: Shepherd, Michigan
Thanks John.

The serial number thing really surprised me as well. I figured it would be a Coleman cat as well when I went to look at it. I checked it once already and I am almost positive it ended in 84E but I’ll double check it tonight. What I do know is the fiberglassing on the inside (loose pieces, resin runs, dry spots, garbage in the work) is beautiful compared to my ’88 Coleman built Holder 14. And the tops / sides area around the front crossbar is completely tight.

So you are thinking definitely glass the front parts – say two layers of cloth 12â€


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:44 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 662
Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
I forgot one thing. Where the hull joins the deck inside the hull, the glue often forms bubbles on the inside. Look closely, and carefully run your finger/thumb along that seam, you will see/feel the unevenness. Take a Dremel tool, or customize a sanding block, and sand down these bumps or bubbles, so that the transition between hull and deck is a gentle and consistent curve. This way, all glass reinforcing will adhere evenly all across that area where you are strengthening. Then those forces that can cause problems can transition, and won't 'go snap' in the middle where the glass will be unsupported.

For glass work, find others who are good at it, and buy them lots of beers. Practice on your own on some junk stuff. The best I know of is the WEST system, not cheap, but cleverly thought out. One pump from the large (resin) can to one pump for the small (hardener) can. Find out which is the best 'filler' to add, often 403 or 404, microballoons.

Learn the 'butterfly' method of laying down some plastic sheeting, (vapour barrier works well,) place the glass cloth on top, in the size that is handy to work with, wet it well with thoroughly mixed resin, cut around the plastic 1/2" or 1" outside of the cloth, pick up the whole thing, put the patch in place, use a small roller (on the plastic surface) to roll out all the air, then gentle peel off the plastic. Takes a bit of practice. Work slowly.

Don't be scared to take the H18 apart, and rotate the hulls as required so that excess resin can soak down into the seam. Gravity is wonderful.

You may find it easier to use 'seam tape' in 2" increments, that is 2" or 4" or 6" tape. Overlap the tape as required. Any good fibreglass shop or sailing store or high end hardware store will carry what you need. Or google WEST on the net. Check with your dealer or nearest sailing club.

Good luck.

_________________
1989 Hobie SX18 Sail # 1947
'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:25 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:13 am
Posts: 149
Location: Shepherd, Michigan
Thanks for the quick replies.

So I should be wrapping the cloth up the side and into the deck as well? Does the fiberglass crossbar hump in the deck need extra glass too?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:05 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2003 7:14 pm
Posts: 455
Location: West MI
The largest port you can put behind a rear crossbar on a 18 is a 5" port.

If you want to see some pictures of my glass work please contact me offline. I am in W.MI

djanddale"at"charter"dot"net

_________________
DVL 1989 H-18 Worlds Boat, Magnum Wings & Spinnaker

dale.vanlopik"at"att"dot"net


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:07 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Old Salt

Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:43 am
Posts: 779
Location: St. Louis, MO
If you are looking for a place to buy the materials at a good price google Jamestown Distributers. They have many different brands of epoxy including West Systems and MAS (both of which are great for this application) and all of the tools and cloth you could want. The prices are better than West Marine and most hardware shops. They are also a good resource for SS fasteners and other obscure boating hardware.

_________________
Nick

Current Boat
In the market
Previous boats owned
'74 Pearson 30
'84 H16
'82 H18 Magnum
St. Louis, MO


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Finished!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:01 am 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:13 am
Posts: 149
Location: Shepherd, Michigan
Ended up using a heavy weight bi-directional cloth and disassembled the hulls and rotated over sawhorses to have gravity help...made fillets on the joints using Marson's Mar-Glass fiberglass short strand reinforced filler before doing the layups...very very difficult to get the anchor plates to fit in the back but I managed ... takes a lot of time and aggravation to do it right but I know that it is very strong now. Thanks for all the help . . . the butterfly technique is beautiful and worked GREAT!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:29 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:13 am
Posts: 149
Location: Shepherd, Michigan
Just wanted to add a few more details if anyone else is contemplating this update...the cloth was six inch wide 12 oz biaxial cloth and the epoxy was Epoxy Plus Marine epoxy, both from triple w epoxy5050 dot com. The stuff worked great and seemed very strong. I used four pieces of cloth in each joint with the heart of each piece crossing through the anchor plate mounting area - the first running lengthwise about 24 inches and joining the topdeck to the side, the next running at a diagonal through the anchor area and up and on the crossbar bulge, the next straight up and down from about six inches from the bottom of the hull to the middle of the crossbar bulge (takes about a 20" length), and the fourth piece being a mirror image of the second piece. The total thickness at the anchor plate location will roughly double to about a 1/4" when you are done. HINTS: Use the butterfly technique. use a small trim paint roller as a roller to apply the layup. Leave the plastic on as long as neceassary to massage the fabric down to a nice tight fit. A dry small paint brush works good for this. Rotate the hulls and use gravity. Remove the deck ports to give extra working room and to retain your sanity. Sand any area well with 80 grit or so before doing the repair. I used mineral spirits after this to clean and prep the area. Allow to dry fully. Use a shop vac to get the dust out. Now is also a good time to fix any little issues on the bottom of the hulls since they are upside down - note - I built a small fixture on each sawhorse to hold the hulls at 45 degrees, so the seam of the topdeck and the side is the lowest point (any extra epoxy flows into the joint). This makes it easy to sit on an upside down bucket and reach in. Get a small flourescent work light that you can place inside the hulls for light - mine was about 20 inches long and I was able to wedge it in vertical for great lighting. A small mirror would be helpful to see the backside of the crossbar bulge - I did not have one. Lots of disposable gloves. Even more patience. Try to then ignore any thoughts of the boat then being destroyed in an accident or stolen after all the work that you are putting into it. Be sure to have a good radio station. Good luck!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:34 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:46 am
Posts: 49
Location: Boise, Idaho
Hi Guys,

I am restoring a 1985 Hobie 18. It is a "redline" boat so the resin is a red color. Here is a link to the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12641

My next step is to add reinforcing to the front crossbar. I purchased the anchor plate reinforcing kit from Hobie & have read your thread on adding the fiberglass reinforcement. Below is a photo of the front crossbar inside my boat.

Image

I am wondering if when you did your repair if the "globs" of resin were as large as in this photo & if you ground the globs down before adding the strips of fiberglass. It might be that these "globs" are adding a lot of strength to the assembly & I don't want to make it less stable, but I don't think the fiberglass will adhere well to the globs unless they are ground down and smoothed out. Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

--Tad

_________________
Tad Jones
1985 Hobie 18 - Redline
Magnum Wings


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:08 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:13 am
Posts: 149
Location: Shepherd, Michigan
I started grinding with a hand file...then bought a gallon of Marson Marglass short strand reinforced polyester filler. I used this to build a nice gradual fillet around and over the gobs (mine were similar in size). Rough sanded the joint a little with some 60 grit before applying the marglass + cleaned with (paint thinner?). The Marson itself is tremendously strong and sticks to anything. I ran the fillet about 8 inches fore and aft of the joint.

Technique that I now use exclusively for wetting out fiberglass cloth:

Cut a piece of scrap clear plastic more than twice as wide as the cloth to be wetted and lay on a flat surface. Mix your resin and pour a little on the plastic. Put the cloth on top and pour the rest of the resin that is needed on top of the cloth. Fold the excess plastic over to make a sandwich. Use your fingers or a small squeegee to move the resin around through the plastic to saturate the cloth. I have had good luck doing up to three pieces all together (same size) at a time. Very little resin waste.

Some people like to apply the cloth and then pull the plastic off but I find that I can't feel the weave (and if I do or don't have good contact, bubbles, pulls, etc...) so I now remove the plastic, and using disposable latex gloves, directly handle the wet cloth. I folded them in half legthwise (hotdog style) to move them through the porthole.

I put on 4 or 5 layers of heavy 12 oz cloth as I remember... I didn't know that I was supposed to alternate with mat at the time. I ran 3 of the layers most of the way down to the hull bottom and as far forward as I could reach, due to seeing H18 hull breaking photo's elsewhere on the web.

Be sure to redrill the tiny venthole that sits under the front crossbar when you are done in case it gets plugged.

Use painter's tape everywhere on the outside around the porthole.

I built a fixture that held the hulls upside down and at a 45 degree angle so that gravity pulled everything to the deck / hull joint. (sawhorses with a few 2x4 stubs screwed into them at the 45 and some rope to lash them on)

Good luck & don't give up!

It is nearly impossible to install the shroud anchor plates on the inboard side of the rear xbar without grinding a bevel into the hull lip...outsides of the back were fine.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:14 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:13 am
Posts: 149
Location: Shepherd, Michigan
Forgot to mention...wear a sacrificial long-sleeve shirt to keep resin and fiberglass shards out of your arm...and don't try 3 pieces of cloth the first time around unless you have really slow set resin.

And a roller or paint brush were almost useless since they tended to lift the cloth. But it might be helpful to wet the hull / deck with a little resin before the first layer...it will really soak in.

And it helps to use a piece of saran wrap over the Marson when putting that on so that you can mold it without it sticking to your fingers. You have to work fast with that stuff, it sets up quick and will get really warm if it has some thickness to it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:44 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Admiral

Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:46 pm
Posts: 159
Location: Bakersfield, CA
There was quite extensive posting on this subject including several from Matt Miller back in February of 2005. Use the "search" option at the upper right side of this page and search for keyword "patch", author "mmiller" and choose this forum. You will find a wealth of info.

Tom
H18M


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 5:04 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:46 am
Posts: 49
Location: Boise, Idaho
Great! Thanks Guys!! I did the reinforcing this weekend. It was difficult to get in there and grind and to make sure it all looks good. I tried using my big grinder, but resorted to a dremel and a lot of time to grind it down. Tight for working with the glass & resin too. I used suggestions from both of your posts & read through the ones from Matt Miller before starting the reinforcing. It was all SUPER helpful!....Especially the glass cloth on plastic. Thanks for the great information & for sharing your experiences! I will post some photos of the reinforcing for others to see in the next day or so. I won't drill until I put the boat back together. Then I will use the anchor plates as a guide when they are attached to the crossbar. Hope you all had a great 4th of July!! --Tad

_________________
Tad Jones
1985 Hobie 18 - Redline
Magnum Wings


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:16 pm 
Offline
Site Rank - Deck Hand

Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:39 pm
Posts: 7
Hey! It's great to find you guys! I just seriously delamed my SX at the rear crossbar this weekend. It had been superficially repaired by the prior owner and only made it a couple of days.

The good news is that I had bought an extra pair of hulls earlier in the week! (For 60$!) So let's start there. The extra hulls are early 80s vintage and appear to be sound. Can you tell me more about the rear 'bracket", "anchor" upgrade everyone talks about? Do I just use hardware from the sidestay or front crossbar? I'd like to do this now if possible as I switch over to the extra hulls to prevent the same blow out. Then I'll do an extensive repair on the originals later.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group