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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:27 pm 
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All the talk is about pushing the wires in to the mast. Mine are tight as a drum and I can barely budge them at all. I guessing the previous owner was running the mast "pre-bent". There does appear to be the slightest arc along the major axis.

Is it better to run the mast pre-bent or adjust it for the conditions? And how much tension is required to pre-bend the mast?

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:50 am 
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O.K. I've read Rick W & Mary W's book and they talk about extreme tension to get prebend. How much is that.

The reason this matters to me is that I've added shroud extenders for safety. They only work if there's a keeper cable to keep the mast in place and the keeper attaches to the diamond wire bolt. Since I can't store it mast up (yet) I either need to re-rig the diamonds every time I launch or come up with another keeper system. (hence my corresponding cable question).

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:25 am 
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The 18 wasn't designed to prebend the mast. Prebending the mast requires that you tune the mast to the sail. The 18 sails are cut differently. Actually, some of the 18 racers should chime in, but the 18 likes the diamonds quite loose.

NCSUTrey wrote:
While adding prebend may depower the boat past a given point, it is important that you prebend your mast to correctly fit your sail. If the mast bend isn't concurrent to the cut of the sail, then you will not achieve optimum power and shape from your sail. Your best bet here is to find someone who knows what to look for in sail shape and reaction and get them to help you out in person. Good luck...

PS: the same rules also apply for diamond tension. Less diamond tension doesn't necessarily mean you'll be faster in lighter winds...


Here's another thread.

http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewt ... ht=prebend

There's a guy on here NCMBM that uses a Tiger main. He could answer the 18 prebend question.

I'm not sure that the lower termination (1/4 20X 5"??) can take the load of a prebent mast.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:59 am 
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The mast base keeper wire requires you to disassemble and reassemble the dimaond wires each time you rig??!! That's pretty absurd if you ask me. I would definitely look into alternative ways of rigging the keeper wire.
I've never seen the system before, but I can pretty much imagine what it entails. If it were me, I would figure out a way to incorporate a shackle/quick disconnect into the existing system.
Or what might be better would be to connect a separate fitting specifically for this purpose. I could envision permanently connecting a length of wire to the dolphin striker with a loop on the free end. Then get one of the stainless fittings used for the upper diamond wire connection and rivet it to the front center of the mast maybe one foot up from the bottom. Then you would just shackle the wire to this fitting each time you sail.

As far as specific diamond wire tension, my personal opinion is that it doesn't make a whole lot of difference. However traditionally, heavier crews run tighter, lighter crews looser. I don't think anyone is messing with pre-bend on the 18.

sm


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 1:25 pm 
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Pre-bend in the mast of a standard 18 is not neccessary and counter-productive. 18 sails do not need the mast tuned to their shape. Use the proven method for diamond wire tension, 12-18-24, and the three W's. Use of a comptip alters the info slightly. I'd go somewhere in the middle, set it and forget it. Be careful with those extenders, they can be a pita! If you can't right it, don't roll it.

Pre-bending the 18 mast is quite tricky as it wasn't design for this. You will damage bolts and buckles. The location of diamond attachment on the 18 mast is not optimal for pre-bending, spreaders don't rake back quite as far as I would like. Its possible to get very close to the right shape, but only close. The Tiger/Fox diamond system would be best.

I'm looking for a Tiger mast if anyone has access.


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 1:54 pm 
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This one should keep you busy :)

http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewt ... t=pre+bend

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 Post subject: diamond wires.
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:16 am 
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"...They only work if there's a keeper cable to keep the mast in place and the keeper attaches to the diamond wire bolt..."

I don't think so; I used the shroud extenders before (I no longer use it as a righting assistance, it's really not easy to use because you somehow have to pull the pin when it's laying on it's side in the water). I'm pretty sure the cable goes through a cleat at the bottem of the mast.

I could be wrong, though. Anyway, the diamond wires should not be really tight. You could look up the measurements in a performance manual.

Wyatt

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:39 pm 
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Here in Div 11 w/ crews slightly above minimum wieght w/ new sails (Misty or White) we are running just a "hint" of prebend ... if I remember correctly we have about 250-300lbs of tension using my Loos Guage. with the speaders racked back. We are trying to get every little bit of power out of the mast. It seems to work.

Remember that tuning quide was written for a "solid" mast and sails w/ a totally different "Luff Curve"

How old are your sails???

Harry

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:28 am 
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I have an original all aluminum mast and the sails are the "Cat Fever" pattern which would date them as original '84s I think.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:33 am 
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Phils book will serve you well as your mast and sails are exactly what he is tuning. No pre-bend is required, loose diamonds are most correct.

Harry, I've got around 450lbs on my wires currently to attempt to get it bent enough for the Tiger main, close but no cigar..........yet!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:51 am 
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I figured I'd weigh in with my thoughts on Diamond Wire Tension for the Hobie 18.
As with all things, free advice is generally worth everything you pay for it, and if you won't be offended by my offering my thoughts, I won't be offended if you cast them aside.

I usually sail with my daughter, we are generally racing @ pretty close to minimum weight. When racing at or close to minimum weight, I prefer to run the Diamond wires a little on the loose side. I define loose as going to the point 36 inches above the anchor point @ the bottom of the diamonds, wrap a bungee tightly around the diamonds, and loosen them till they squeeze in to within 3 inches of the mast.

In the past, I have also done a fair amount of racing with Tom M. ( who also races a H-18 and posts on this forum ) When sailing together, Tom and I were racing at about 360#, and When racing at that weight, I generally run the Diamond wires quite a bit tighter.

All that having been said, the H-18 mast is really designed to be bent on the minor axis and the sail is cut with that in mind.

The H-20, and the Tiger masts have diamond wires mounted differently, and the difference in mounting, I believe, tends to bend them on the major axis which requires a great deal more tension on the diamond wires. Also, the cut of the sail is designed with that in mind.

To try and tune a H-18 Mast the same way the H-20/Tiger guys tune their masts is going to be an exercise in frustration.

The reason I run looser wires when sailing @ minimum weight is that the loose wires allow the mast to bend sooner, which flattens the sail more, and allows you to depower. The easiest way to get the mast to bend in overpowered conditions is to have a 5:1 or a 8:1 Downhaul, I run a 8:1 because the advantage of sailing with a lightweight female crew is offset by her lack of arm strength to really crank on a 5:1 and get enough downhaul to really flatten the sail.

The reason I sail with the tighter Diamond wires when sailing with Tom is that if the wires are loose, the mast bends far sooner than I would like it to and starts to depower when I still need all the power I can get.

When sailing "heavy" I really want the mast to stay straight and keep the power pocket in the sail . The tighter Diamond wires when sailing heavy keeps the mast straight when sailing in light air even tho you may have inadvertently "oversheeted" a bit. It also keeps the mast straight and the mainsail powered up in heavier conditions when because of the weight you can make use of the additional power.

Diamond wire tension is one of the very few adjustements I make on my boat from one regatta to the next based on the total weight of skipper and crew.

Almost everything else I set up exactly the same no matter the conditions.

I got some advice that I considered to be good advice from Greg Thomas a couple of years ago.
He said, " Tornado Sailors used to make changes in setup when the conditions changed as little as two knots. They spent more time tuning the boat than they spent sailing the boat. The thinking has changed, and now, as the Hobie factory team we very seldom sail the same boat twice. We set the boat up exactly the same way every time we sail it, and learn how to sail it fast at those settings."

I think a discussion such as this one is good. I think it is important to know WHY you set up your boat the WAY you set it up.

Make changes ONE at a time so you can evaluate the effect the change has on the way your boat sails. If you make several changes at once, you cannot know the effect of each individual change.

Do not get set in your ways, always be open to learning new and better ways to make your boat go fast.

The last major change I made to the way I set up my boat was shown to me by a man that had only been sailing the Hobie 18 for a year. The lesson in that, is that you can learn from anyone, if you have an open mind.

Stephen

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 Post subject: Diamond Wire tension
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:51 pm 
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Stephen,

You got me to thinking ... I have this bad tendency to over sheet the mainsail !!! And that may be the reason I seem to sail better w/ the higher diamond tensions.

Megan and I are sailing at approximently 410 lbs .... maybe a little more as I do not want to ask a young girl what her exact weight is .... that can open a whole can of worms that is just not worth it to me. Young girls have enough problems/pressure w/ image for me to add more ... I've told her my wieght, told her the minimum weight to "make class" and asked "do we make wieght?"," Yes or No". No exact figures/numbers mentioned.

My sails were new last spring ... Glenn tuned his mast totally different for those origonal H18 #1400 sails you were admiring .... how old is your current mainsail??? Isn't it several years older then my "white" H18 #9458 sail??? Mr origonal "Blue Hawaii" H18 #9458 sails I ran w/ loose diamond wires. Do you think the luff curve of the sails could be different between your's and mine ???

On my P19MX (square-top) Randy Smythe had me set the mast up w/
1 3/4"- 2" of mast prebend that required slightly more then 550lbs of diamond wire tension to achieve.

George Kuney has set his mast up as I discribed for those "misty" sails he purchased from Mr Jim Sohn ... Susan and George are really close to minimum wieght .....

This maybe like a "Calculus Math Problem" ... there is more then one correct solution !!!!

Oh, the new job is going well ... I think. Three "good job today, Harry" for the last three days. Working hard ... w/ long days ... but that is what you get as a "saleried" manager !!!

Harry

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:14 pm 
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Harry,

I had a nice reply almost done and my computer locked up and I lost it all. I just don't have the time or energy to recreate the whole thing.

Soooooo.......

First off, unless Megan grew a great deal since last summer, I rather suspect you two are sailing @ 310 #

Second, congrats on the good reviews at the new job, just remember one aw chit wipes out 3 atta boy's <Grin>

Third, next time we have a chance to visit in person, we can talk more about sail shape and diamond wire tension, for as you noted there is not a "once size fits all" answer.

Warm Regards,
Stephen

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