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 Post subject: New H16 Mast Rake
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:12 pm 
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Location: Spokane, WA
Anyone know the measurement for the new H16s? I'm looking for the difference in halyard length between the bridle bolt and the lower transom/keel when the halyard is moved aft.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:54 am 
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Generally, it's between 10 and 16 inches (ticks on the Comptip halyard).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:06 am 
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Thanks for the answer! In comparison, my old '74 is set to the lowest hole on the shroud chainplates. My rake's measure is about six inches. To me, this partially confirms how my worthy competitor can make power closer to the wind while I must foot and reach deeper past the windward mark.

I think my only other choice is to put another tack in before I reach my layline tack. I think my VMG would be better but I would still be behind him timewise?

Always fun!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:17 am 
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What hole you're in on the shroud chainplates has little to do with your mast rake while sailing. It only limits how far forward your mast will go.

Your jib halyard controls your mast rake - assuming that you've got enough slack in your forestay that it never goes tight (tight forestay = bad).

It's not necessary, or even desirable to rig the boat with the jib halyard pulled drum tight. I don't care how tight you set it on the beach, the leeward shroud will always be slack when sailing upwind. A tight rig prevents the mast from rotating easily.

The only limitation on mast rake for older boats is how much leech tension you can put on the main with the sheet. Too much rake / too much stack-up in the blocks and you can't sheet the main in all the way.

Tacking the 16 is slow. Rather than throwing in an extra tack or two, sail further out to your true layline if you're footing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:43 am 
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Location: Spokane, WA
Yes,
The leeward shroud is always slack when I'm beating. And there's plenty of slack in the forestay when rigging.

How much concern should I have about loosening the jib halyard to increase the mast rake beyond the proper 'point'? Isn't there a point where the mast ball will pop out of the mast step/socket because there's enough slack in the rigging when I capsize?

I'm block-to-block right now with my current sheet set-up and I still think my main has too much chord depth in it's shape. (Fast to power up but limited from top speed?).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:48 am 
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You have to get pretty extreme in the rig looseness to worry about the mast coming off the step.

For example, on the 14, we run the rigs so loose that you can grab one shroud with your hand, then turn it 90 degrees. Look at how slack the leeward shroud is on 63019:
Image

We use the tail of the main halyard to tie the mast down to the step when we run that loose. You can see it in this photo:
Image

I never run my 16 that loose.

I think you mean "draft" when you said "chord". Chord is the straight-line distance from the leading edge of the mast back to the leech of the sail; draft is the perpendicular distance from the chord line to the sail itself - it's the "depth" of the sail.

Mainsheet tension does not greatly affect draft, except at the top of the sail. Batten tension, batten flexibility and the cut of the sail are the greatest influences on the amount of draft. The downhaul controls the position of maximum draft as does the batten taper.

Lots of draft (especially in the jib) = no pointing. That's why new sails are faster - they're flatter.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:51 am 
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Location: Abq, NM
MBounds wrote:
It's not necessary, or even desirable to rig the boat with the jib halyard pulled drum tight. I don't care how tight you set it on the beach, the leeward shroud will always be slack when sailing upwind. A tight rig prevents the mast from rotating easily.


Matt, I have alway been told to cinch down the jib halyard as tight as I can get it. This is a bad thing?

Thanks
Sam

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:09 am 
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It's not bad - it's just misunderstood. :wink:

Some people like tighter rigs - the rig doesn't slop around in waves and you can point higher. But it's not fast.

The Puerto Ricans (some of the fastest Hobie 16 sailors on the planet) use the jib halyard to de-power in breeze - which just makes the rig looser and looser. They foot like crazy upwind, which lets them go with one rudder up:
Image
(those are actually some Guatemalan kids in the photo, but you get the idea. BTW, Guatemalans are fast, too.)

Notice the main traveller is centered, but the top of the main is twisted way off - you do that by easing the jib halyard. Jib is travelled out to keep the slot open. It's hard to see, but the leeward shroud is pretty slack.

Conditions in that photo were pretty extreme - 15-20 kts, huge waves. It was taken the first day of the 2006 Hobie 16 North Americans in the Atlantic Ocean near Naragansett, RI.


Last edited by MBounds on Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:25 am 
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Interesting, very very interesting,


I will give it a try next time out.

Thanks for the info.

Sam

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:35 am 
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MBounds wrote:
Some people like tighter rigs...But it's not fast.


What about G Colby and A. Worell. I saw Colby stand on a JH so much it pulled the swage right out of the pigtail. And Worell. He went pretty fast in Alameda last year wouldn't ya say? :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:09 pm 
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Image
The leeward shroud looks slack in this photo.

Image
And in this one.

Image
And in this one.

I'm not saying he didn't do it - if you know it's blowing the dogs off their chains, there's no real advantage to having a floppy rig - but it's also easier to ease out the halyard than it is to take up on it on the water - especially if you've moved the shrouds down to take some of the slop out of the rig and when you don't have the "adjustable" jib halyard system, which Aaron didn't (you can see the halyard cleat in the first photo).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:01 pm 
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Word MB! Good call. BTW that was the best racing I've ever seen! You guys put on a good show.

...I think I owe you some money...

J


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:10 pm 
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Location: Virginia
so , going on 25 year old info, is the current thought that more wind= tighter jib halyard, and 2, do you mark you halyard so you get repeatable settings?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:11 pm 
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PLus, can you share a pictrure of an adustable halyard system? I want one.

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Raced extensively as a kid (against Matt Bounds!!), just bought a 20 year old 16 and am refurbishing it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:23 pm 
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rbell wrote:
so , going on 25 year old info, is the current thought that more wind= tighter jib halyard


Not necessarily. There's a complex relationship between mast rake, rig tension and the ability to get the leech tension you want for the conditions - which could change over the course of the day (and you won't be able to easily adjust the shrouds).

Quote:
do you mark you halyard so you get repeatable settings?


Absolutely.


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