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 Post subject: Square top mainsail
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:58 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 606
Location: Saskatoon, Sk. Canada
I have been thinking about replacing my origonal mainsail with a new loose footed square top mail. Has anyone tried this and if so how did it work out. By rights it should allow you to point higher!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:15 pm 
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Location: Finger Lakes, NY
Hey Roy- The full, "square", head panel allows you greater speed off the wind or down wind but really doesn't help pointing. It gives you greater sail area overall up high where the wind is and it gives you a much fuller roach for more overall sail area.

I think that a main with a boom allows the fine tune along the foot of the sail giving you the flat and forward belly that will let you point higher over a loose footed main also.

So don't think the loose footed, square topped main is a bad idea, I just think that it will do different things for you than you expect.

- Happy Sails to you.
Stephen

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 Post subject: Sails
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:42 am 
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Welp, I have both a pin-head and square-top sails for my main boat (It is not a Hobie).

A few things to consider:

1. H16 sailors like to rake their masts back. Square top sails have more sail. The more sail the more draft usually. Expect your already loaded-up rudders to be extra loaded up going to the wind. This can hinder pointing. That is why most boats with square tops also have daggarboards. The the pointing issue is moot on these boats.

2. Square top sails are great in gusty conditions. Small mainsheet adjustments make big differences. Once you are comfortable with how they work, you will be happy.

3. Boomless rig is dependant upon the width of the sail relative to the attachment point of the mainsheet to both the sail and rear x-bar. I don't like boomless rigs. However I don't like booms attached to the base of the sail either (H14 & 16). Loose-footed booms are the way to go with square-top sails.

Best thing to do is to ditch the H16 if you are looking for a higher tech boat. H16 is an oldie.


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 Post subject: Re: Sails
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:56 am 
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Location: West Texas
Shark11 wrote:
I don't like booms attached to the base of the sail either (H14 & 16). Loose-footed booms are the way to go with square-top sails.

Can you give us an example? Thx. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:28 pm 
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Location: Finger Lakes, NY
I think Roy is referring to a rig like the older H17. There is a full length boom with the tack above the gooseneck on a downhaul and the clew is at the other end of the boom on an outhaul. The foot itself is not connected anywhere else. This set up still allows you to fine tune the draft as necessary for your wind conditions and point of sail.

Roy makes good logical points too- food for thought- thanks. I agree that H16's are old school indeed, but like long boards, they are still versatile crowd pleasures and performers.

Roy- tell us more about what it is that you are sailing please. Thanks dude! 8)

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The fact that this windy world is largely covered in water obviously means that man was meant to sail.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:51 pm 
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Location: West Texas
Cool. I've seen the square-topped mains for sale and wondered what the point is...


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 Post subject: Explaination
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:33 am 
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Loose-footed boom rig = H20, 17, 18, N5.2, I20, 18, 17

The boom is attached to the base of the base and to the end of the sail. Not all the way across the bottom like an H14 or H16.

I 100% agree the H16 is a good old design. However, I think a rudder design change might have to be made when adding a square top sail. Longer, stiffer rudders will give you better performace to the wind with the added draft of the new sail, plus will add lift has the rudder becomes higher aspect.

The resulting cost will be greater than what you gain in performace. That is why I recommend you spend you hard earned cash on a different boat instead of retrofitting an H16 in this way. Maybe someday Hobie will update it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:30 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
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Location: Detroit, MI
Quote:
Maybe someday Hobie will update it.


Don't hold your breath.

BTW, Hobie Cat doesn't control the design / updates of the International Classes (14, 16, 17, 18, Tiger). The International Hobie Class Association makes recommendations to the International Sailing Federation (ISAF), who gives their ultimate approval / disapproval of any design changes.

As an example of how lengthy this process can be, it has taken over three years to get new downhaul and outhaul systems approved for the 14 and 16.


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 Post subject: ...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:18 pm 
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I20, I18, I17...

As in INTER20 or NACRA20

I did not mean International monos.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:40 pm 
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Location: West Texas
Nono he means that the Hobie Cat company doesn't control the design anymore, the class association makes recommendations for ISAF to approve. Then Hobie Cat will modify the design based on that.

I think that's what he meant anyway. :lol:

Jim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
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Location: Detroit, MI
Jim's right.

The "formal" name of the H-16 is "The International Hobie 16". It means that ISAF has recognized it as an international class. Not every boat Hobie Cat makes is a recognized international class.

Only the H-14, H-16, H-17, H-18, and Tiger are.

Clear as mud? :?


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 Post subject: OMG
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 1:03 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 8:45 pm
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Location: Saskatoon, Sk. Canada
I can't believe all the response I got! I have a 1985 16 and was thinking about a good upgrade for the boat, I sail in a small inland lake in western Canada and sail mostly by myself. I thought a square top main sail might be a good upgrade but after reading all the comments I'm not so sure now. I don't think I would ever go to a different boat other than maybe a newer 16 as I love my hobie :D Anyway it’s -50 here with the wind chill and 2' of snow, so I have some time to decide. I can hardly wait for spring!! -- Roy


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:02 pm
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Location: North Idaho/Eastern WA.
I actually own a square top main that I utilize on my H16. Honestly I do think it adds more performance particularly in light winds and in strong winds it tends to twist off to depower and reduce pitchpoling. Add Hobie's new trumpet spinnaker and the boat really rocks. Don't get the square top as loose footed as I found it seemed to make no difference plus having a captured footed main works great and works with the existing boom. Just keep it simple and you will have great fun with it and no you don't need different rudders as they do not load up as much as has beem mentioned. A side note when getting fiber foam battens for the main good luck finding a long enough one for the bottom of the main, I didn't realize the H16 main is so wide as compared to other cats.

So Roy really I don't think you need to add anything to the H16 to make it rock, but if you want to add something I would add the Hobie 16 trumpet spinnaker, and then the square top main latter for distance races, etc. (non-hobie regattas).


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