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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:47 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:47 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Southern Colorado USA
Hi all and thanks for the warm welcome on my pre '73' post.

Next project is hull repair on this old cat. I've never worked with fiberglass but have plenty of shop time on other materials. I have the West System Repair and Users manuals and need to know if there are any materials compatability issues with this older boat.

For starters I thought I'd try the recommended soft deck area repair at http://www.hobiecat.com/support/tech/delam.html but have seen varying opinions on access ports should that fail. The affected area is about 8"x20" forward of the front port pylon.

Next area of concern are the Hull bottoms. I have read Drej's response to clepinger's post 'Glass Showing on the bottom of one of my hulls."
and I'm guessing some epoxy build-up would be in order here first. Anything to add?
Image
Image

Any thoughts about the Deck edge condition and deck gelcoat crazing? At this point, if it's not structural, I'm not all that concerned.
ImageImage

I also have some significant gouges in the starboard hull prow. Same buildup as the bottoms? Just Epoxy?
ImageImage

As to the rest, I was thinking of the approach as recommended in this excellent article to fill scratches/gouges and refinish the gelcoat.
http://www.sailnet.com/collections/gear ... and%20Deck
for filling in the scratches/dings and recoating with the roll & tip technique.
ImageImage

Finally, I figured I would re-seal the pylons with 3M 5200 Marine sealant and reseat the rudder gudgeons and drain ports with new fresh sealant and seals respectively. Also, it seems to me I saw a post on lightly edge grinding the deck hull joint, thoroughly cleaning it and refilling with epoxy to assure a good seal.

I want to do this once, so please point out any better options/strategies.

Many thanks and have a great new years holiday!

Mitch mpvw@ri.net


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:56 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:39 pm
Posts: 433
Location: West Texas
I'll go ahead and tackle these things one at a time. Take my opinions with whatever salt you feel
is appropriate. 8)
Quote:
For starters I thought I'd try the recommended soft deck area
repair at http://www.hobiecat.com/support/tech/delam.html but have
seen varying opinions on access ports should that fail. The affected area
is about 8"x20" forward of the front port pylon.

I haven't had this issue so I can't speak to it with first person experience, but if you do a good job of
clearing out the old foam and inject enough epoxy into the soft areas, it should be very, very sturdy.

Quote:
Next area of concern are the Hull bottoms. I have read Drej's
response to clepinger's post 'Glass Showing on the bottom of one of my
hulls." and I'm guessing some epoxy build-up would be in order here first.
Anything to add?
[img]http://www.directrecoverycorp.com/hobie/hobie%20026.jpg[/im]
[img]http://www.directrecoverycorp.com/hobie/hobie%20027.jpg[/im]

Can you feel the weave at all? I can't see clearly enough in the images if it looks like the wear goes through
any layers of glass or not. If it seems that glass has been "sanded" away, you might want to put down another
layer of glass in those areas, but otherwise I'd put a coat of epoxy over those areas.
You'll want to test it with the West System epoxy first, but I found that the dyes that come with West Marine's
gelcoat repair kit also work in Lowe's $1.79 epoxy and don't interfere with its curing. If it works for West System too,
then you could use the W.S. epoxy instead of "gelcoat" (which is polyurethane resin/hardener with a dye.)
Your nose will thank you for it, as polyurethane resin stinks something FIERCE and it's probably not very good
for you either. Also, wear rubber gloves. ;)

Quote:
Any thoughts about the Deck edge condition and deck gelcoat
crazing? At this point, if it's not structural, I'm not all that concerned.
[img]http://www.directrecoverycorp.com/hobie/hobie%20020.jpg[/ig][img]http://www.directrecoverycorp.com/hobie/hobie%20021.jpg[/ig]

No, that all appears to be cosmetic. If you want to make it look better you could sand it lightly and then buff
aggresively using acetone. That'll melt the gelcoat a bit and may help fill in the cracks. I've used that technique
to make my yellow decks really shine! Again you can mix dye with the epoxy to fill in the flaking areas if
you are so inclined.

Quote:
I also have some significant gouges in the starboard hull prow.
Same buildup as the bottoms? Just Epoxy?
[img]http://www.directrecoverycorp.com/hobie/hobie%20004.jpg[/ig][img]http://www.directrecoverycorp.com/hobie/hobie%20005.jpg[/ig]

For the big holes that clearly penetrate the fiberglass, you'll want to use flox to fill it. (Such as the 403 Microfibers
on the West System page.) You can also make your own by going crazy with a 3-4 cotton balls and a pair
of scissors. Basically you want "cotton powder." You mix that in with the epoxy until it's got a peanut-butter
consistancy and then fill those big gouges. It'd be nearly impossible to do it otherwise. I'd use a Dremel to make
the holes symmetric and even and clean them out well with a brish and acetone. Then fill 90% of the way with
the flox mixture.
Then put a layer of bidirectional fiberglass over the top of the flox (before it cures.) Wait for all that to cure
and trim the fiberglass so that it doesn't stick out the sides at all. Then mix some dye in with your epoxy
again to match the hull color and finish/fair the patch. 8) Just did that about 2 months ago on my boat after
accidentally sailing into a big rock. :(

Quote:
As to the rest, I was thinking of the approach as recommended in
this excellent article to fill scratches/gouges and refinish the gelcoat.
http://www.sailnet.com/collections/gear ... and%20Deck
for filling in the scratches/dings and recoating with the roll & tip technique.
[img]http://www.directrecoverycorp.com/hobie/hobie%20025.jpg[/ig][img]http://www.directrecoverycorp.com/hobie/hobie%20024.jpg[/ig]

You can certainly do that if you want to paint the hulls. 8)

Quote:
Also, it seems to me I saw a post on lightly edge grinding the deck
hull joint, thoroughly cleaning it and refilling with epoxy to assure a good
seal.

I just did that 2 weeks ago. Took me 4-5 hours total including flipping the boat over. I'm very happy with the way
it came out but I have yet to get out on the water to see if that slowed my leaking at all.

Good luck, bro!

_________________
Warm regards,

Jim

Image


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:28 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:39 am
Posts: 471
Location: Finger Lakes, NY
Diamond in the rough Mitch- We used to make some of those repairs like this right on the beach in the morning and be sailing by the afternoon. You'll be done in no time dude! :wink:

West Marine sells their epoxy based repair "system" on the fact that epoxy adhesion and strength is superior to over the counter glass repair. That's cool, I have used their system and I recommend it very highly for bigger boats.

For our Hobies however, you can get away with a good fiberglass body kit from any automotive store (ie Bondo). Personally I would lay up a couple layers of cloth in those keels and glass over them. Those demo-derby bites out of the bows need to be ground open more and then built up again. Like Jim said- if you make them more symmetrical it will help. You might consider wrapping the keel repair up to the deck at the bow once you fill in the holes.

Nothing else from this old man today- Happy Sails.
-Stephen

_________________
The fact that this windy world is largely covered in water obviously means that man was meant to sail.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:47 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Southern Colorado USA
Thanks Much Guys!

Jim- Stephen, a couple of questions.. on the delam, I was not aware that I needed
to "clear out the foam".
I was assuming the laminating resin would melt and replace it??? Based on the procedure described at
http://www.hobiecat.com/support/tech/delam.html I don't know how I would access the old foam anyway...

On the hull bottoms, I can't necessarily feel the glass and based on the contour, it does not seem 'flattened' out so I'm guessing a simple epoxy buildup would do.
Did you see something in the pics to indicate otherwise Stephen?
Thanks for the advice on Lowe's epoxy and Automotive fiberglass body kit $ savers. I'm thinking to repaint the hulls as indicated so would not need to do the dye thing. Is it bad form to go to a different color on an antique like this?
I was thinking to go to white to save trouble later.

One last. Dremmeling the gouges out to make symmetrical... Why? doesn't a jagged (clean) gouge provide a better grip than a smoothed opened surface? Again, my first time working with glass.

Thanks for all the great advice! I won't be starting on this for a couple three weeks so if you think of anything else I'm very interested.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:39 pm
Posts: 433
Location: West Texas
Mitch wrote:
Thanks Much Guys!

Jim- Stephen, a couple of questions.. on the delam, I was not aware that I needed
to "clear out the foam".
I was assuming the laminating resin would melt and replace it??? Based on the procedure described at
http://www.hobiecat.com/support/tech/delam.html I don't know how I would access the old foam anyway...

Hm. Could be but like I said I've never done it. I was just thinking along the lines of "squirt epoxy in one hole
until it starts coming out the others, then stop and clean up.

Quote:
Is it bad form to go to a different color on an antique like this?
ANTIQUE?!?!

I don't think I'd change my colors. Much. Mebbe orange-red to pure red or something...

Quote:
Dremmeling the gouges out to make symmetrical... Why? doesn't a jagged (clean) gouge provide a better grip than a smoothed opened surface?

I mean make the gouge sort of "oval" shaped rather than the bizarre outline it has currently.
The reason being that it makes it easier to cut a piece of fiberglass to fit an oval. Use a brush to clean out
all the loose bits. :)

Jim


Last edited by JaimeZX on Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:06 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:09 am
Posts: 2
My only suggestion is using 3M 4200 it is the samething as 5200 except that the 4200 is removable, if you use the 5200 the only way to get it off is a hammer and screwdiver
Greg G.
Columbia, SC
Sail # 30523


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:22 pm 
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Site Rank - Captain

Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 8:07 am
Posts: 143
Location: Virginia
Hey Mitch,

I would stick with Silicone on the pylon sealing. I don't know if there is any movement over time between the pylons and the hulls (there shouldn't be), but if they do work the seal loose, silicone is really easy to get off and reapply fresh. Its an easy job. I know 4200 is removable, but I don't know how easy it is to do. Definitely stay away from 5200

If you wanted to use 4200 on the gudgeons, they shouldn't have the same issue.

Just my 2 cents.

Take lots of pictures and share!

Drej


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:08 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:39 am
Posts: 471
Location: Finger Lakes, NY
I think that Jim (Jaime) may be one of the more experienced repair artists on this forum. I bow to his expertise on repairs.

Definitely use a flexible removable sealent on the pylons as drej points out. The main reason being that EVERYTHING flexes, moves, vibrates etc-not only while sailing, but while towing.

Happy New Year!! 8)

_________________
The fact that this windy world is largely covered in water obviously means that man was meant to sail.


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 Post subject: Flox
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:33 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:47 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Southern Colorado USA
Hey Jamie,

I'm actually getting close to starting on this repair list. Materials in hand and almost done with the most recent phase of remodel on our 110 year old house.

As I re-read your suggestions on repair of the gouges on the front, you suggest chopping up some cotton to make the flox with. How about some figberglass insulation instead? Any advantage/disadvantage there? I happen to have some laying around...

Thanks,

Mitch


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:30 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:39 pm
Posts: 433
Location: West Texas
It's not so much that cotton is important as being able to make it into a fine powder so that it'll thicken the epoxy
into a peanut-butter-like consistancy. You could certainly try using insulation if you feel like it.
Just realize that tiny glass particles (from chopping) could be extremely itchy. :o

Jim


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