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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:50 am 
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Location: Rockport, Tx
I was thinking about replacing my main Wire halyard with rope? Good, bad? If I were to do this would boat still be class legel? This is on a
1980 Hobie 16. The new ropes claim to be low stretch. I would use the
same diameter, or maybe go up one size. Thoughts anyone.


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 Post subject: Wire or Line for halyard
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:12 am 
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The halyard on the 16 is what keeps the sail head in the luff track when fully hoisted and locked. The wire also keeps the sail fully hoisted. The lock up top reduces the compression loads on the mast too. If you were to use a line and tension it enough to hold the sail head at the top, you would have 2 times the compression load as normally is placed on the mast...

all in all... not a good idea.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:40 am 
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I am not sure how using rope would double the compression, the sail provides the load which would not change. The full length rope halyard cleated at the bottom of the mast would just spread out the load over the complete length of the mast. Most sail boats use a similar rope halyard without serious conflict, the longer the rope, the more stretch, and the less chance of breaking the rope. Whereas the short wire has a tremendous amount of tension in it between the sail head and lock.

The wire halyard may create assymetrical compression, warping the mast toward the aft, which may be desirable. Also I have wondered if the cleats at the bottom of the mast are structurally strong enough to handle the weight of the loaded halyard. I understand they are designed to just tie the excess halyard line to when the sail is hoisted and the wire halyard bead is locked in.

Also, I would wonder if the rope would be able to hold the sail head in the luff track securely, or whether there would be a loss of efficiency with the sail head possibly flagging about?

As far as class legal, I would be interested in knowing that as well.

I recently purchased an H16, where apparently the previous owner used a full length rope main halyard. The rope is considerably worn, and needs to be replaced, but I have no idea how long it lasted. Speaking to the Marine West clerk, he indicated that all the boats he had sailed in 30 years had a rope halyard, and so there should be no problem if good quality marine grade line is used. However in checking online, I realize that an OEM halyard is not that expensive, the difference between the Hobie wire and marine rope, will maybe be $10 , so I expect to place an order at the Hobie dealer, and not worry about the other issues, and only use a rope halyard in a pinch.

Thanks Tnt


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:28 am 
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I think you want to have the halyard fixed at the top of the mast for the reason Tinkerntom already mentioned: when increasing downhaul this produces a shear stress atop which bends the mast aft, which on the other hand makes the sail plan flat. Also, a 8 meter rope, even if it is low stretch, will stretch a few cms, this gives you less leach tension and/or less possible mast rake.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:35 am 
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One issue with using rope and cleating it off. When the mast bends in the wind, it will shorten the distance between the top and bottom and reduce the downhaul tension.

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Hobie 18 "Blue Jeanne"


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:33 am 
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I got to thinking more about the compression factor of a full length halyard and whether it doubles the load on the mast. The compression load would not change based on the sail load, but when you tension the halyard, you would be increasing the load on the mast by that amount. The rope tension is much more than the compression load of the sale, but added together, they can be considerable. The tension on the luff track would also be equal, but you could get some major distortion of the mast if overtensioned. Of course by that time you would have the sail so distorted, that I would hope you as a sailor would be aware that something is wrong with the rig setup. Has anyone ever seen a mast failure in the race enviroment just with sail load and downhaul tension?

I suppose that if you tension tight enough you could reverse warp the mast to the fore, even if all you did was straighten the mast out. That would be extreme, but it would illustrate that you could increase the total load on the mast, which could not be good, especially with the mast warped in reverse. Now I don't know if you could tension a rope halyard to that extreme, unless using a downhaul block on the halyard, and at that point you would probably be ripping the cleats out of the bottom of the mast. Again that may be a hint that something is wrong.

Actually the real problm that you would probably encounter is not being able to tension enough, and consistently. With a rope halyard, the sailtop to sheave and down to bottom cleat distance could be variable and stretchy, not very efficient. Whereas, with the short wire halyard, there would be a fixed and non stretchy relatively speaking, distance that the sail top would be from the sheave. Then when you downhaul at the boom, the downhaul guage would give you a meaningful measure each time you set the boom.

What you are wanting to do is induce a consistent amount of aft warp into the mast, that is probably included in the sail design. If you don't accomplish that warp, you will not achieve design performance of the sails. On a high performance catamaran, this is more noticeable than on a lower performance monohull, especially in a racing environment. It may be race legal, but it would also be a handicap.

Now I am not a racer, so for my Sunday sail it may not make a lot of difference. Thanks, TnT


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:29 pm 
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While the mast warp may be an issue in replacing the wire, i think a more important consideration would be finding something to attach the halyard to once (and if) it is properly tensioned. i have replaced several jib halyards because the block system was not properly used and the bottom rivet pulled out, luckliy i have always caught the problem onshore and not in the middle of the river. another consideration is your hands, if you were to use a halyard that was the same diameter as the wire halyard so it would fit properly into the wheel at the head of the mast i would imagine your hands would get torn up so bad you would wish you werent so cheap. I am all for saving money anywhere possible, but the halyard is no place to do it.

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The pessimist complains about the wind, the optimist expects it to change, the realist adjusts the sails.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:08 am 
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Tinkerntom wrote:
Actually the real problm that you would probably encounter is not being able to tension enough, and consistently. With a rope halyard, the sailtop to sheave and down to bottom cleat distance could be variable and stretchy, not very efficient.


Yep. You would have to tension the halyard enough to keep the downhaul from pulling the head down the mast... double the compression on the mast than what the design is intended to be. This would induce more bend than you want. As the mast bends under load the halyard would go slack and allow the head to drop which would reduce the downhaul / luff tension... chaging the sail shape.

Use a wire halyard, not rope.

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Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject: wire halyard
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:54 am 
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Location: PO box 1513 St John VI 00831
I'm surprised no one has mentioned that the halyards used on late model boats, a short wire, end cap and then rope have a tendency to break. I have broken two in the last year. The wire breaks where it enters the end cap.

After the wire broke I tied the rope halyard to the sail head ran it thru the sheave and cleated it at the mast base. I could not get enough downhaul to de - wrinkle the sail and found that it worsened on the sail home. Furthermore the halyard comes down from the mast head in a straight line to the mast, when the mast rotates that angle and downhaul tension seem to change.

I am trying to come up with a wire to rope braid that would not break. I was considering a braid from West Marine with a nicopress clamped around the wire to hold under the mast hook at the top. Any experience or ideas with improved halyards?

Han
http://www.SailSafaris.net


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:27 pm 
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Location: Clinton Lake Lawrence, KS
Have never had the wire fail, but in our case the rope is so old it needs replaced. Wondering if the old (non comp tip) wire halyard distance from shackle to "locking bead" is the same distance? I have the complete halyard from a bent, all aluminum mast that is in great shape.

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Fleet 297


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:37 pm 
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Location: Clear Lake Iowa
Hobie 20? When?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:56 pm 
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Location: Clinton Lake Lawrence, KS
OK, I know I said I'd be patient and find one this Winter, so I guess I jumped the gun a little.

It's Mark Benge and John Morks old boat, they bought the old Collins boat...
the trickle down effect.

I'll tell you one thing, we're stoked, and ready for '06! :D

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:09 pm 
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Awesome. See you in May.


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 Post subject: wire halyard
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:44 am 
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I just broke my third halyard! They come apart right where the wire goes into the capped rope. I have a theory. When on certain tacks in high winds the halyard smacks the mast making a racket. I tend to increase halyard tension to do away with the sound. I think that too much halyard tension might pull the wire cap up from its fork and allow it to move. The fork might rub on the wire and slowly cut it. Although with full downhaul I can't imagine I would exert enough force to lift the brass cap out of its fork?

Am I really the only one breaking halyards?

Ideas, comments?

Han

I don't really want to buy more halyards until I figure out what my problem is.


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 Post subject: Breaking halyards
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:38 am 
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It happens, but not that much. I never have broken one myself.

Check a few things. Clearance for the halyard to go over the sheaves. May hit the housing? Sharp edges on the fork?

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Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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