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 Post subject: spectra for rigging
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:33 pm 
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Location: ca
Has anyone tried using spectra or other High Modulus Polyethylene cord for rigging. This is all the rage for the big ocean racers. I am quite sure it would not be legal for racing but would have a variety of advantages for us poor sods who must sail unloved and alone.
It is amazingly easy to splice. fantastically strong, light and of course it means the end of meat hooks.
Downsides are that it seems to require special non metal thimbles and is quite expensive although some of the expense may be mitigated by doing it yourself and not having to lash out for the express delivery when you discover your kid has used your stays as tie downs for his motorcycle.

Any thoughts, anyone tired it?

SK


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 Post subject: Re: spectra for rigging
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:43 pm 
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shawnkillam wrote:
I am quite sure it would not be legal for racing . . .
You got that one right.

Spectra standing rigging is not for those who have a set-it-up-and-forget-it attitude. It has poor abrasion resistance and only moderate UV resistance. It needs vigilant inspection to prevent catastrophic failures. It's also subject to creep (slow, permanent elongation under load).

Stainless steel wire rope is low cost, low maintenance, highly abrasion and UV resistant. It's the perfect standing rigging material for the average Joe Hobie Catter.

Spectra is more suited to trapeze wire replacement.


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 Post subject: Re: spectra for rigging
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:00 am 
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MBounds,

I am surprised to hear that spectra has poor abrasion resistance. I know it has been adopted in the logging industry and found it lasted on average 30 to 50 percent longer than steel. Logging cable is standard steel so that may be the difference. You are certainly correct re UV resistance specially when compared to stainless steel.

I picked up a small piece to fool around with and rubbed it against the corner of my concrete patio for about twenty minutes. It did fray but once the outer coat started to fuzz up (for lack of a better term) it outlasted my attempts to break it.

I don't disagree that the stainless steel wires are probably the best and certainly the easiest (as long as you have been smart enough to order a back up set-unlike me), but I am a curious kind of old dog and I wonder what the Oracle racing team knows that I don't know.

I don't want to offend the purists and I don't need to be flamed by those with a large stylized "H" tattooed on their chest, but I would like to hear from anyone who has fooled around with HMPE whether on their boat or in their workplace.

Additionally if anyone else can point me to a website that discusses the good bad and ugly it would be appreciated.

regards SK


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 Post subject: Re: spectra for rigging
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:09 am 
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Last edited by ChrisD on Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: spectra for rigging
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:55 am 
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shawnkillam wrote:
I don't disagree that the stainless steel wires are probably the best and certainly the easiest (as long as you have been smart enough to order a back up set-unlike me), but I am a curious kind of old dog and I wonder what the Oracle racing team knows that I don't know.
On a pure performance level, UHMPE lines are better than 316 stainless wire rope. That's why Oracle uses them. They also take the wing down every day and inspect everything. Anything that looks suspicious (frayed) is replaced. They have the manpower, the time, and most of all, the money to do that.

The average Joe Hobie sailor isn't so thorough. Nor is his wallet that fat.

Even racers probably wouldn't want them - it's already significantly more expensive to maintain a competitive boat - this would add just another wad of cash to the pile of burning money.


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 Post subject: Re: spectra for rigging
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:01 am 
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Location: Northfield Minnesota
If you want to use it for shrouds, forestay, and bridle, you are going to have to go with something like PBO and that stuff is not cheap. Another option is rod rigging, I've only seen it once on a beach cat and it was an A-Cat. Absolutely zero stretch I think was the goal. The new high tech lines are adequate for rigging, they just aren't idiot proof the way wire is.

I've kicked around building a set of shrouds. The best way I figured I could minimize the creep was to hang weight on the line, (like 200+lbs), and then twist it up and walk away letting it untwist itself naturally. I think a few times of having weight on it, and being spun around would allow it to find home and take out most of the issues of the line creeping. The forestay I'm a bit leary of.



I use spectra/dyneema where ever I can.

-main halyard is tapered with a dyneema tail so there is nothing but 1/8" line in the mast when the sail is up. Not really neccessary, I'm just a retard.
-spinnaker halyard is basically the same way.
-I spliced a tail in my spin sheets for tying them to the clew
-Spinnaker pole bridles
-Tack line for the spinnaker is dyneema in the pole spliced to a single braid for the cleat and take up system.
-My down haul is a cascading 16:1. 4:1 to 2:1 to 2:1, all but the last 2:1 is dyneema.
-Trapeze lines I put a small bit of cover on the top to protect it from chaffing.
-Trapeze return lines, one end spliced to a dog bone, the other spliced to a sister clip with an aluminum stopper.
-Main sail blocks attach with a loop of dyneema and a stopper ball.
-Spinnaker bail is supported by a piece of dyneema.

There's probably something else too, but I can't think of it. :lol:





I just had another thought, I wonder how well it would hold up on a H16 with the floppy loose rigs. That might create some issues as well.


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 Post subject: Re: spectra for rigging
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:06 am 
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MBounds wrote:
- this would add just another wad of cash to the pile of burning money.



Pile? :lol: I spend more on boats than I do on housing per year..... :lol:

Matt I think you are slightly over stating things here. I built my trap lines four boats ago, and just keep moving them. I have replaced the return part a couple of times, but the line going to the hound is almost three years old, and I sail quite a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: spectra for rigging
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Location: Naples, FL
Quote:
-Trapeze lines I put a small bit of cover on the top to protect it from chaffing.
-Trapeze return lines, one end spliced to a dog bone, the other spliced to a sister clip with an aluminum stopper.


Karl, I've had a trapeze line break on both sides of my boat and have been considering replacing them with Dyneema (1/8" Samson AmSteel).
http://www.apsltd.com/c-1492-amsteel-blue-samson.aspx

Another line I've been concidering is Vectrus 12 -Yale. I was looking at the vectran line because it has a coating that gives it better UV stability.
http://www.apsltd.com/c-1487-vectrus-12-yale.aspx

What I was wanting to know is what kind and size of line do you use?
I would think that 2,000 lbs tensile strength would be enough.

I was thinking of using Ronstan Sailmaker's Thimbles (1/8") for the top.
http://www.apsltd.com/c-908-thimbles-sleeves-and-swage-fittings.aspx

And for the bottom I was just going to make an eye splice for the block on my EZ-UP trap kit.

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'79 Hobie 18


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 Post subject: Re: spectra for rigging
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:46 pm
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Location: Greenville SC
shawnkillam wrote:
MBounds,

I am surprised to hear that spectra has poor abrasion resistance. I know it has been adopted in the logging industry and found it lasted on average 30 to 50 percent longer than steel. Logging cable is standard steel so that may be the difference. You are certainly correct re UV resistance specially when compared to stainless steel.



To answer this, Amsteel is now very common on 4x4 winches which is a very close application to the logging industry. On my Jeep in competitions, Amsteel would be "safe" much longer than steel cable. (and now required for competition use) The cable will kink and is dangerous in the case of breakage. I can break a Amsteel line next to a crowd of spectators and they should be more or less safe. The loggers have the same issues.

That said, cable will last MUCH MUCH longer than Amsteel. Amsteel only lasts a year or so with regular use before it breaks down and is unusable, cable will last and last for a decade. The only real reason that Amsteel is use is that its so much safer in the case of a failure and its accepted that it will fail more often and cost more

I just installed Vectran trap wires on one of my boats. I am pretty excited to try it out. Worst case scenario I end up in the water as opposed to my mast coming down.

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 Post subject: Re: spectra for rigging
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:38 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:45 pm
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Location: Northfield Minnesota
FunkyWalker wrote:
Quote:
-Trapeze lines I put a small bit of cover on the top to protect it from chaffing.
-Trapeze return lines, one end spliced to a dog bone, the other spliced to a sister clip with an aluminum stopper.


Karl, I've had a trapeze line break on both sides of my boat and have been considering replacing them with Dyneema (1/8" Samson AmSteel).
http://www.apsltd.com/c-1492-amsteel-blue-samson.aspx

Another line I've been concidering is Vectrus 12 -Yale. I was looking at the vectran line because it has a coating that gives it better UV stability.
http://www.apsltd.com/c-1487-vectrus-12-yale.aspx

What I was wanting to know is what kind and size of line do you use?
I would think that 2,000 lbs tensile strength would be enough.

I was thinking of using Ronstan Sailmaker's Thimbles (1/8") for the top.
http://www.apsltd.com/c-908-thimbles-sleeves-and-swage-fittings.aspx

And for the bottom I was just going to make an eye splice for the block on my EZ-UP trap kit.


The Amsteel stuff is really hard to splice. It doesn't open up very well, I bought some a while back and I think it was an 8 plait line, which is why it wouldn't open up as well. I use Robline, just a 3mm, but I think that has 12 and its super easy to get a fid through. I started just buying line by the spool. Cheaper, and I don't run out of line as often.

At the top where it goes to the shackle I just make an eye splice, with a bit of cover to help with wear on the shackle. I bury it a couple of fid lengths in, and then a few stitches so it doesn't split.

At the handle, just about any thimble will work. Sailmakers thimbles are more expensive because they are a closed loop. Not really necessary for a trap line. Plus if you want to but a small block in there, you can't without a shackle, (which is just more crap.) The Ronstan handles have gotten a bit cheaper and there is less material in the bottom where the thimble would go in. I hunted around in the bins at Ace Hardware and found something to keep the thimble from forcing its way in, and deforming the handle.

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 Post subject: Re: spectra for rigging
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:49 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:25 am
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Location: Naples, FL
Thanks for the reply!

Bacho, I believe you're right about the longevity of the cable over the Dyneema but the real reason is that I just want to try it out to see how it performs.

Karl, thanks for explaining how you rigged you trap lines and the picture. I was thinking of using the thimble for the top where it goes into the shackle and make an eye splice around the block that attaches to the to the dogbone. I was thinking along the same lines as you about finding something that would work to keep the splice from traveling up the handle. I just haven't started looking yet.

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'79 Hobie 18


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