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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:02 pm 
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My wife and I took learn to sail lessons with a shark and 420's We had no difficulty tacking in light and heavier winds. We have had our new (old 1970's) hobie out several twice, once in lighter winds and once in heavier winds. Under both conditions I keep getting stuck in irons then get blown back into the same course I started the tack from. Jibing is not a problem. It seem I can not get the hobie to turn through the wind enough to catch the back of the sail. I have tried pulling the main over as a switch sides. We insure that the jib is allowed to luff through the turn. I have tried building up a decent speed prior to the attempted tack. Any suggestions for a nubie would be appreciated.

PS: I really do love the hobie more than either the 19 ft Shark or the 420 as does my wife.

reefknot


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:10 pm 
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Don't luff the jib. Leave it sheeted until it backwinds enough to push the bow over.

16s don't tack easily. Heavy air (with heavy crew) makes taking harder. In any case, be gentle with the rudders so they don't stop the boat.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:47 pm 
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The hulls of catamarans tend to work against each other when trying to tack. In addition to what has already been suggested, you might try bearing off a little to build speed just before you tack, which may get you the momentum you need to get through the wind and headed around on the new tack.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:51 pm 
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I'm getting better as we learn but in there are lots of good info on these forums on this subject. Search on Roll Tack for example, here's a good thread: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=15224&hilit=rolling+tack&start=15#p82142

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:29 am 
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Welcome to the wonderful world of Hobie 16s. Great in a straight line, sucks to turn.

As stated, keep the jib sheeted until it fills on the other side. Turns need to be easy on the helm. Suddenly putting the helm down will stall the boat. Timing the waves in high winds is an art you'll develop. Tacking on wind shifts when you're being headed helps. Speed matters, and sometimes in light winds you might need to scull the rudders a bit. Roll tacking helps a bit and I don't go over to the other side of the boat until I've passed head to wind. Practice is essential, and yet you'll still get stuck. Then again, I've seen the AC45 skippers stall their boats.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:46 pm 
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Lol. I think I posted almost the exact same thoughts last year when I traded up my sunfish for a hobie. I rented one on the inner coastal and I loved the major increase in speed and space for my wife. I highly recommend reading the hobie university PDF. I printed it out and gave a copy to my wife. She actually really enjoyed reading it and learning more about the boat and sailings instead of me just telling her what to do (ok well that always help the marriage in general).

http://www.hobieclass.com/site/hobie/ih ... HobieU.pdf

It was very helpful to me to truly understand tacking on a cat. I'm much better at it now and in fact was pretty good at it solo the other day. For me the key has been that steady gradual turn and pulling the jib across and waiting until you bring the main across later. Don't go into a sharp turn or you will definitely stall.

Enjoy the boat.
Jim

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:31 pm 
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Wow! The support from this community is almost overwhelming. I am trying desperately to work between the storms and get out to test these great suggestions.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:48 am 
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Something else that works that I don't see mentioned, comes from sailing a 14 foot hobie cat that most, did not have a jib( just the turbo 14's). It works just as good on a 16 with a jib.
The situation:
You end up in a stall, pointed into the wind, the jib is just short of back winding.

Turn your rudders sharply the opposite way you want to turn, and at the same time or just prior grab/push the boom (depending on where you are on the tramp), and pull/push the main out hard allowing the blocks to pull out line, so you can backwind the main,(opposite side of boat that you want the jib to backwind on). It will cause the boat to go backwards or backup and turn, it will pull the bows around enough for the jib to backwind. In heavy winds it works realitively fast, so watch your jib and boat with its orientation to the wind. when your sure the jib is backwinding, get over on the now windward side, turn your rudders completely the other way while getting your tiller stick on the windward side and then sheet in your main, Then uncleat your jib and let it travel to the leeward side, then sheet it in and cleat it.
In heavy winds, soloing, be aggressive or you'll get caught on the wrong side, and go over. The combination of pulling the boom, then flipping your tiller to the windward side, while moving yourself to the middle of tramp and standing up and pushing the boom out while keeping the rudders turned, will help prevent that from happening.
Practice it in lighter winds and you'll get a good idea of what you'll need to do in the heavier winds.
I hope that discription can help you visualize the technique, maybe some others can expond on it some more, making it clearer to understand. Very effective even with a crew, just make sure you send them over to the other side prior to that jib backwinding.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:21 am 
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This subject comes up often, and I usually bite my tongue, but......

With proper technique, you do not have to backwind the jib to come about on a Hobie 16!

Keys are...
Max speed (close hauled, sheeted appropriately) righ up until begin of turn.
Smooth turn with increasing pressure on rudders. Don't let them straighten until you are through the turn (which can be difficult while switching hiking stick over).
Cut both sheets when head to wind, and let the main go out a couple of feet. (Even sticky blocks/sheet will cause the main to stay too far centered weathervaning you into irons).
Keep skipper weight back and aft on "old" side as long as needed to help the bows pivot. (In lighter air you can literally stay on the "old" side until fully sheeted and going forward again before changing sides. Doing so in heavy air is not advised!
Once through the turn, sheet in jib first to keep bow off wind. Otherwise, that huge main will weathervane ya'!

Read up on Rick White's Roll Tack for cats.

Backwinding the jib, while effective at pushing the bow around, virtually kills what little forward progress you have, making it harder to get going again once the turn is completed. Also, you will give up precious ground if trying to round a mark, obstacle, etc. All you backwinders....give it a try.....you can do it with parctice!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:26 am 
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The problem with being taught to sail on a monohull dinghy and then transitioning to a cat is that the process of tacking a cat is slightly different and there is much less margin for error when tacking a cat. A small dinghy is very forgiving to tack and very easy to get out of irons - just turn the rudder and the boat will back out of irons.

When they teach you to tack a dinghy, usually the first thing you're told to do when entering the tack is to uncleat and release the main and jib sheets, then turn the rudder, switch sides, and finally pull in both sheets. If you do this on a cat, you will never complete a tack as the boat will have stalled well before it comes head to wind. The sheets (especially the main sheet) have to be held in tight as you enter the tack, otherwise the sails will weather vane and the boat will stop turning completely. When you tack a cat, what you want to do is let the crew know you're tacking, then initiate the turn, but keep the sheets in tight (the sails will naturally depower as you turn into the wind). As the boat continues to turn, the jib battens will pop over onto the new tack (jib still in tight on the old side), at that point you want to release two or three feet of mainsheet, otherwise the boat will stop head to wind and you will be in irons. Keep the rudder turned throughout the tack, and once the main battens have popped over onto the new tack, then uncleat the jib and sheet in on the new tack. While it's true you don't NEED to backwind the jib to tack a H16, most folks will agree that it's much easier for people learning to sail the 16 to backwind the jib initially. Once you get better, you will backwind less and less, but for starting, I think you definitely want to backwind the jib to increase your success rate.

If you get stuck in irons, uncleat both the main and jib, climb across the tramp onto the new side, and push the rudder away from yourself and also push the boom out away from yourself as far as possible. This will cause the boat to back op onto the new tack (K-turn). Once you're on the new tack, sheet in the jib, straighten the rudder, and sheet in the main to sail away.

sm


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:10 pm 
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srm wrote:
While it's true you don't NEED to backwind the jib to tack a H16, most folks will agree that it's much easier for people learning to sail the 16 to backwind the jib initially. Once you get better, you will backwind less and less, but for starting, I think you definitely want to backwind the jib to increase your success rate.


My post was directed more at those who are more experienced and participating in this thread. They read one had to backwind the jib, they did it, and now they're are posting that the jib MUST be backwinded. Thus the myth is propagated.

And why not just learn to do it right (read: my way!) in the first place? All things considered, it think it easier to do the other parts properly and leave the tack with momentum and flow over the rudders (steerage). After backwinding the jib, the boat is basically stopped. Then there's the the dreaded wait to see if the boat will ever go again before weathervaning. Backwinding the jib also masks the feel for what's at the heart of this issue.....weight placement which affects the boat's "attitude," proper sheeting which affects where pressure is placed on the boat, and proper rudder control.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:05 pm 
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I should have titled my former reply: "What you can do, if you get caught in the irons, to salvage your tack, in a pinch"
Rattle N Hum's reply is: the Ideal technique for tacking. But unfortunately once you've stalled and are stuck in the irons, you've got to improvise and overcome the situation. I've offered "what works for me in that circumstance" the technique can help you salvage a tack, its not what you really want to do on every tack. If you must, regardless of what others say, it is not a Cardinal Sin to backwind a jib. The Ideal is: to come around with out having to backwind.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:33 pm 
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One thing nice about letting your jib backwind a little longer when solo sailing is that the boat is sort of in a lull at this time and it gives you some time to rearrange things on your tramp (lines, travelers, drinks, etc.) before you take off.

In a good wind, once you let your jib blow across and start sheeting it in, be prepared to take off like a rocket.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:42 pm 
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I had my friends wife with me two weeks ago so he could get in some solo hull flying. After 12 years on 16's, I've got my tacks down really well but she was telling me that they've started roll tacking because they stall out a lot. I suggested she show me their technique because I've never tried it and I'm always up for learning something new.
As soon as I said tacking, she moved to the back, slamming right up against me, moving me back about 6", I weigh 40lbs more than her husband. The stern of the hull we were on went down more than a foot under water while to opposite bow shot up into the air and I almost fell off the back. Still can figure out how I managed to grab the mainsheet block pulling myself up and over to the other side to keep the boat from going over.
We sat there at least 5min in irons laughing our asses off after that one. Then decided I didn't need to learn that one any more.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:14 pm 
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rattle 'n hum wrote:
This subject comes up often, and I usually bite my tongue, but......

With proper technique, you do not have to backwind the jib to come about on a Hobie 16!

Keys are...
Max speed (close hauled, sheeted appropriately) righ up until begin of turn.
Smooth turn with increasing pressure on rudders. Don't let them straighten until you are through the turn (which can be difficult while switching hiking stick over).
Cut both sheets when head to wind, and let the main go out a couple of feet. (Even sticky blocks/sheet will cause the main to stay too far centered weathervaning you into irons).
Keep skipper weight back and aft on "old" side as long as needed to help the bows pivot. (In lighter air you can literally stay on the "old" side until fully sheeted and going forward again before changing sides. Doing so in heavy air is not advised!
Once through the turn, sheet in jib first to keep bow off wind. Otherwise, that huge main will weathervane ya'!

Read up on Rick White's Roll Tack for cats.

Backwinding the jib, while effective at pushing the bow around, virtually kills what little forward progress you have, making it harder to get going again once the turn is completed. Also, you will give up precious ground if trying to round a mark, obstacle, etc. All you backwinders....give it a try.....you can do it with parctice!




The only thing I might add to this... Which you addressed.... and is covered in the Rick White roll tack section...

If you stay on the "old" leeward side as long as possible throwing the Tiller extension around isn't near as much of a problem as if you are heading over before the tack is complete... If you stay on the "new" leeward side until the main battens pop or just a hair longer you will have no problem steering as you won't have to switch hands or do anything extra with the tiller until after the boat is headed and moving forward on the new tack... and a bobble or slight "opps" as you grab the tiller and move across to the new windward side doesn't cost you near as much as if you were to be less smooth while the boat is head to wind...


That tip right there improved my tacking more than any other aspect of my tacking process has this year... The crew can completely bungle. botch, or otherwise not follow instructions and I can still make nearly any tack with speed... Even solo with the jib backwinded, (effectually a brake) I can still carry decent speed (relatively speaking) in most conditions...


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