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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:40 am 
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Location: Silverthorne, Colorado Tucson, Arizona
Noticed a sketch of the trucks of both the all aluminum mast and the comp-tip mast related to rule 4.7.
My 1980 16 has an all aluminum mast.
Will buy sails from Hobie if I an race with this mast.
Otherwise will get cheap sails and wait until I find crew before outfitting for racing.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:02 am 
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For class racing, yes - the Comptip is still required. It's been almost 30 years since its introduction (1984) and almost 25 years since the requirement for class racing was put in place (1989).

If your racing with a Hobie 16 that old, you're not seriously competitive no matter what mast you have. A 1980 boat will be way too heavy.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:30 pm 
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8) Thank you.
When the only keeping me from winning is the lack of a new boat I will buy a new boat.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:57 am 
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chas5131 wrote:
8) Thank you.
When the only keeping me from winning is the lack of a new boat I will buy a new boat.

"Competitive" does not equal "winning". Competitive means being able to keep up with the rest of the fleet. You won't learn how to race if you're coming in last by a substantial margin in every race you participate in. It's not fun, and you'll end up quitting.

You don't need a "new" boat to be competitive. You do need a boat that's less than 33 years old. A solid Hobie 16 made in the last 15 years will serve quite well as a "starter" race boat. Putting new sails on a 33 year old boat to race it is a waste of money - no matter what mast you have. Boats that old are suitable for pleasure sailing, but not for racing.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:31 am 
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Ensign, Thistle, Lightning and other one design championships are won by boats that are around 40 years old at times. Why not the Hobies?

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Hobie 16, Pearson Ensign and one sailboard and one sup


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:54 am 
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chas5131 wrote:
Ensign, Thistle, Lightning and other one design championships are won by boats that are around 50 years old at times. Why not the Hobies?

Weight
Boats gain weight as they get older (don't we all!), but an Ensign weighs >3000 lbs; a Thistle weighs >550 lbs; a Lightning weighs >700 lbs. A few extra pounds is not a big deal to them. Minimum weight on a Hobie 16 is 320 lbs. Hobie 16s before 1984 weighed >340 lbs - 20+ lbs is a significant percentage of the boat's weight. Weight doesn't affect straight line speed, but it greatly affects acceleration (remember F=ma?). Hobie 16s are significantly faster than all the other one-design classes you mentioned - and acceleration (out of a tack/jibe, working through waves) is a significant component of their overall speed. Weight is a major issue - and there's no real way to make a heavy boat lighter. Older, light boats (1984/'85) boats can be competitive - if they've survived this long. They tended to be fragile. Newer (since '96) boats are both light and sturdier.

Incremental Changes
While your 1980 Hobie 16 and my 2007 Hobie 16 are superficially similar, there have been many small production changes that cumulatively make my boat significantly quicker, especially upwind. Many of them have to do with squeezing every every possible millimeter of mast rake out of the rig - and balancing the rudder system to take compensate for the additional load that puts on them. For you to upgrade your boat to take advantage of the differences would cost as much as buying a new boat. We're talking about things like crossbars with integrated traveler tracks, beefier corner castings with a much tighter fit, a different mast step casting and a revised jib cut with a higher clew. Fully sheeted in upwind, my boom is less than 9" above the rear crossbeam (not the track). My jib clew plate is less than 2" from the front crossbeam. You can't do that on a 1980 boat.

The helm on a newer boat is light and responsive. The rake adjustable rudder castings (introduced in 1984) make balancing the boat a breeze. I can lay my tiller down upwind and the boat will track straight, with almost no helm input. The stock rudders from 1980 (Lexan) are heavy and flexible - they give the helm a "mushy" feel, while the EPO, EPO2 and EPO3 rudders are light and extremely stiff - it's like sports car steering.

Casting / Pylon Wear
Older boats are loose - put your fully rigged boat on the ground and slowly lift one bow. Note how much you can lift it before the other bow starts to come up. On a newer boat (or one that's been glued together), the bows will come up in unison. That slop in the frame is an energy absorber - some of the energy that could be used to make the boat go faster is eaten up by making the frame twist. You can shim the pylons and tighten the tramp to help reduce the slop - but the only real way to eliminate it is to epoxy the castings to the pylons and crossbeams.

I don't want to discourage you from racing - on the contrary - I want you to try it and not get discouraged. I'm very familiar with all the classes you mentioned, and it's very rare that an old boat does well in them - mainly because it takes a lot of labor and $$$$ to do so. It's not practical and the people that do it do it because it's a labor of love. It's much more practical to get a newer boat, learn to sail and race competitively - then if you want to get to the very pointy end of the fleet, get a new boat and go from there.

You're in an area (Tucson) that has a very active Hobie fleet (Hobie Fleet 514 - http://www.fleet514.com/). Hook up with them and they can get you started on the right track.


Last edited by MBounds on Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:32 pm 
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At the 2010 midwinters east race me and my dad sailed our 1983 16. We have been racing it for years. My dad has been sailing since the 1974 so he has a good bit of skill. It was very noticeable how uncompetitive our old boat was compared to the new boats. At the race is was blowing enough for us to both be trapped out. Just on the first leg to A mark the guys from New York on their new boats would put a football field's distance on us. We sailed the boat as hard as we could. The boat was clearly holding us back. Its really tough to see how you could race the old boats against the new boats.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:25 pm 
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Location: Perth - Western Australia
Will the boats provided at the worlds have comp tip masts?

I have yet to see a boat in Australia with a comp tip mast...


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:52 pm 
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waheed wrote:
Will the boats provided at the worlds have comp tip masts?

The class rules require Comptips only in North America and all-aluminum masts are required in the South Pacific region - which includes AUS.

The short answer to your question - no.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:14 pm 
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Now let me start by saying that I agree that racing an old boat is unlikely to be competitive in any sense of the word. However, someone has an old boat, doesn't matter if it's a Hobie or a Sunfish or whatever. He wants to find out whether he's interested in racing and takes his boat to a local regatta. Then he finds out it no longer fits the requirements of the one design class. He hasn't replaced the mask, or he bought a tramp from someone other then Hobie, or whatever.

Some places will let him race. But technically he shouldn't be allowed to. And some places won't allow him to race. Even though we all know his boat isn't competitive. But it would give him a chance to try it out and see whether it's worth investing in a competitive boat.

It would be nice if one design classes had a rule that read something like this:

A boat x number of years old, as verified by its registration or hull number, shall be allowed to compete if the boat is in substantial compliance with the one design rules, as determined by the measurer, if the boat no longer strictly conforms to the one class, but has original equipment that is no longer allowed and/or replacement equipment that does not meet the strict class criteria, but was not modified or replaced solely for the purposes of increasing speed.

This might help get more boats on the line and sailing. And the sailor who decides they like competition will probably be acquiring a better boat in short order, but the sailor who decides against competition wouldn't be out a lot of money for a boat they didn't really need.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:29 am 
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X2 I had a blast racing my 1980 16 this summer. And got 4th place. No comp tip and after market tramp. If I got turned away that would be the last race I tried to enter. More boats more fun right?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:32 am 
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hobiesrock wrote:
X2 I had a blast racing my 1980 16 this summer. And got 4th place. No comp tip and after market tramp. If I got turned away that would be the last race I tried to enter. More boats more fun right?


Thanks but the negativity here sent me back to my boat. Also ordered a new sailboard.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:48 pm 
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X3



If you were in a position to win A fleet at an event... that is one thing.. And we want to support Hobie and the Class when and how we can....


But for B fleet and club racing...

We simply don't have the manpower to enforce those kinds of rules.. :wink:





Stupid comptips... :x


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:27 pm 
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+4 - Jim nailed it.

I'm sorry to say the strict class rules do more to turn away potential new Hobie sailors than they help the few that are serious about racing. When you tell someone at their first Regatta (which, if they are new to racing, is already daunting) their boat isn't "class legal" and they need to spend a lot of $$ on upgrades, don't be surprised when they feel discouraged and don't come back.

Yes, I agree, it's time to say "enough is enough" let's end the years of silliness and allow a grandfathering of solid masts on original boats.

And while we are at it, do dacron sails cut/sewn to OEM measurements or aftermarket tramps give you some special advantage that should make them an unfair? No? Then it's time to allow them too.

Seriously, if the argument against this is keeping the racing "fair", then wouldn't the same argument apply to EPO/Glass/Carbon rudders, aussie halyards, 6:1 downhauls, integrated travelers, and jib trimming systems? Those all give you a significant competitive advantage and are perfectly legal.

We need to encourage everyone to race what they have. As new sailors get better they will improve their gear. As long as Hobie keeps making the best quality parts, they are going to be the go-to supplier, especially for those of us that race. Honestly, I think everyone wins. We need more sailors in the Hobie Class. Lets find a way to encourage the kid with the '82 16 from his neighbor's back yard to come join us next time rather than explain why he can't afford to race with us.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:11 pm 
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+5. The class and their rules are silly. its the reason my father years ago stopped racing and why I stopped racing shortly after he did. it became elitist. like a frat or yacht club. only the hot shots can race.

you dont have to look further than the race results these days - most races in the USA are not well attended. id be curious to see numbers - total Hobie owners and of those owners how many actually race even once per year. How many 16's will be in Galveston? bring back B fleet? bring back C fleet? loosen up the rules. its completely over-regulated.

Along the same vein, Hobie USA is afraid to make improvements to the 16 because they dont want to step on the toes of HCANA, which is laughable because there are so few that actually race. so in essence they are protecting less than 100 Hobie sailors nationwide. Ive made some improvements to my boat, changes, etc...not for speed but for convenience and ease of rigging, etc. these changes do not make my "older" boat faster, but i did get clowned at the last regatta i sailed in - some old salt told me if I did well it would not count because my boat was out of conformance. I laughed, telling him not to worry, my (censored) old boat was slow and i wasnt there to win. I was simply there to have fun and sail with a bunch of other Hobies like I did when I was a kid


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