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 Post subject: Rudder Up upwind
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:46 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:24 pm
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Should I kick up the windward rudder when going to weather?

It seems to me that there are two schools of thought: the first theory is that you should kick the rudder up to reduce wetted surface, making the boat go faster; the second theory that I have heard is that you should not kick up the windward rudder because when in the water it creates lift and helps you gain height to weather.

Which of these seems right? Any other theories? Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Up upwind
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:55 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:11 pm
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Location: Detroit, MI
This has been covered before, but:

1) It's an advanced technique that takes serious coordination when tacking.

2) The drag reduction (it's not just wetted surface) is not really that significant except in light air.

3) The main benefit is that it forces you to steer (mostly) with the sails, not with the rudder (no tiller movement is fast). It forces you to foot (which is fast), because if you pinch, there's a risk of going into irons.

Here's the link to the other thread: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=49058&p=219494&hilit=rudder+up+windward#p219494


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Up upwind
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:19 am 
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Very interesting; I wonder what can be done to sort out an older boat?


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Up upwind
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:23 am 
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hogwldfltr wrote:
Very interesting; I wonder what can be done to sort out an older boat?

Like I said, this is an advanced technique - you need rudder lock-down systems that work perfectly - like on a new(ish) boat. I can't imagine trying to manage this on a older boat.

It also takes a lot of getting used to the feel of the boat. Unless your helm is completely neutral going upwind (like on a new(ish) boat), you'll end up in irons. A lot.


Last edited by MBounds on Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Up upwind
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:00 pm 
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I would say an outright no no, (when racing at least) and IMHO!
Here's why, the little time you may gain in speed from the kicked up rudder will be lost ten fold when tacking or jibing due to having the additional process of buggering about with the rudder, setting down.
This can be harder than you may think when under pressure and coming into a turn at speed as the rudder will want to ride high and will take some force to lock down.

Having said that it can look good while flying a hull to impress the girls :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Up upwind
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:00 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:35 pm
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Location: Tuscaloosa, AL
errrrrrrrr, you would drop the rudder before the Tack or Jibe.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Up upwind
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:08 pm 
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sxrracer wrote:
errrrrrrrr, you would drop the rudder before the Tack or Jibe.


Thus telegraphing your intentions to the fleet? :-)

Back in the day we knew when people were going to tack when the crew on the rail flicked their cigarettes overboard ...

Can also be used to fake a tack ...

:-)

Randy


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Up upwind
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:56 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2003 7:21 pm
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Location: Thunder Bay,On
Actually tacking with one rudder up (if done correctly) should actually help you tack faster.Reason is it makes you stay on the windward stern ,to drop Rudder, which helps to roll tack the boat.Here is a nice summary of sailing with one rudder


Step by step
1. Your sailing with double trapped full power with one rudder.
2. Luff the boat gently and jump in from the trapeze when you are heading directly into the wind.
3. Crew jumps over to new side.
4. Skipper pops down the rudder, releases a bit of main sheet and jumps to the new side. Since the skipper is slow over to the new side because of the rudder you get the benefit of a roll tack also.
5. Gain speed on the new tack with both rudders and start sheeting in the main.

Now you have two options
Option 1
6. Gain some more speed so you can sheet the main in a bit more.
7. Raise the rudder
8. Go out in trapeze.
option 2
6. Go out in trapeze and sheet in the main for max power with both rudders.
7. Go further back in the trapeze and kick the tiller up with your rear foot to release the kick up.
8. Kneel in (stil in trapeze) and pull the last bit of rudder up to locked position.

Most of the really good guys use option 2.this option require that your rudder casting bolts are a little looser.
Option 1 is a lot easier to execute.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Up upwind
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:13 pm 
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Location: Thunder Bay,On
paragon1970 wrote:
I would say an outright no no, (when racing at least) and IMHO!
Here's why, the little time you may gain in speed from the kicked up rudder will be lost ten fold when tacking or jibing due to having the additional process of buggering about with the rudder, setting down.
This can be harder than you may think when under pressure and coming into a turn at speed as the rudder will want to ride high and will take some force to lock down.

Having said that it can look good while flying a hull to impress the girls :wink:


Depends on what level you want to take your sailing.If you want to compete at an elite level ie Worlds ,North Americans then it is worth practicing and perfecting.Like Matt said it forces you to steer near perfectly.By near perfect I mean very little rudder movement and not pinching.
Cat sailing upwind usually involves long stretches on one tack,over that long stretch perfect steering will pay dividends.
Really the only time you could get hurt is on shifty lake sailing.
Then again if you are just a Weekend type racer you are probably better off sailing more conservatively with both rudders.This is not a technique you just want to experiment with on the race course under pressure.You want to have it perfected by hrs of practice first.
Matt ,like myself have seen the good guys first hand,they don,t do it just to look cool.But I must admit it does have a cool look.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Up upwind
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:27 pm 
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I watched Gavin Colby tack on the weekend while I was on a support boat. In one motion he was able to drop the old windward rudder, free the new windward rudder and be hooked up ready to take off on the new tack. This was in about 15knots of breeze so not trivial. As he got out on the wire he used his foot to make sure the rudder was locked up and disappeared into the distance.

It was pretty to watch :)


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Up upwind
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 2:31 pm
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Location: Kailua 96734
Your opinions on raising the windward dagger? When does this pay off and when might it impede you?


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Up upwind
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:56 am 
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Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 12:02 am
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Location: London
Check out Catamaran Racing: for the 90's by Rick White and Mary Wells.
Page 129 'A Word About Rudders' It is a section dedicated to the benefits and drawbacks of rudder-lifting.
The text is in favor of not lifting the rudder and it gives specific real world timings comparing tacking with and without employing rudder-lifting.

I am happy to supply the text if the moderators are OK with that but am really
not sure what copyright infringements I could be breaking by posting it here.

On another note if you do not own this title I would certainly recommend it, ignore the 90's and the Racing in the title, I would put this up there as one of the best books on the topic of small Cat sailing that I have read for both day-sailing and racing.

-SRG


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Up upwind
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:15 am 
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Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 10:33 am
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Location: Clinton, Mississippi
SRG: I'm glad that you are enjoying that book.....it's still my favorite as well. However, it should be mentioned that the book is actually dated somewhat. There have been a lot of devolpments in boats and techniques. Also, many references to the RRS (racing rules) no longer hold true as those are revised every four years. Even on the relatively unchanged Hobie 16, the top guys are constantly improving techniques and tweaking their rigs. I expect Rick White's rudder tacking advice still holds true for most of us mere mortals, though! :)

Happy New Year!

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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Up upwind
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:46 am 
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Location: Thunder Bay,On
Very true Rattle,lots of different techniques and tuning on the Hobie 16.Very sure the boat is being sailed faster around the course then even 10 years ago.I have been sailing the boat 30 + years ,and I am still finding ways to improve.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudder Up upwind
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:48 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:37 pm
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Location: Sechelt, BC, Canada... Sunshine Coast
JPED
Take a look at these guys....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdiL4A5d89U

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