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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:12 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:47 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Spokane, WA
Hello All,
I had the chance to introduce faster winds to my 9yr old son this past weekend. What a blast we had! He was crazy about it! Some observations from experimenting:
-beating upwind...I think I could use more mast rake. The shrouds are attached to the third hole from-the-bottom out of seven holes total on the adjuster. Not as fast as footing as my windward jib tells were stalling. Possibly this is the closest to the wind that I'll get?
-Blown jib?...during the pinching test the foot of the jib would luff. As read from other users, does this indicate a worn-out jib or just a course that's too close to the wind?
-hull trim...while reaching it was difficult to keep the windward hull just out of the water without it rocketing upward. (Because of my son's low body weight- 48lbs. and current experience level, I'm not sure trapping-out would be a benefit). Would a 'smoother' method of achieving the most efficient heel angle be to cleat the traveler and adjust with the main sheet? Or adjust both and steer as I do now? I was sitting just next to the rear casting so possiby my body weight- 168lbs. could have resisted the upward zoom of the windward hull during a puff if I was trapped-out. I suspect this is just a characteristic of a strong wind gust.
-leeward bow...(additional to above). Again, as we reached, the boat's pitch trim was too forward for me to be comfortable with. During this portion of the course the waterline averaged within inches of the bow rim where the bridle attaches. I couldn't have moved more weight aft without trapping-out with my right foot near the rudder pin. Then again this might have interfered with steering. Maybe a bit more mast rake would move the center-of-effort aft and pull the bows up a bit? Or maybe we should just start trapping-out farther back on the trampoline?

Other, I noticed at least two old H16s overgrown and un-used in the weeds, what a shame.

What a great weekend,
Eric


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:35 pm 
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Location: Spokane, WA
One of the many launches this weekend...

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:27 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:36 pm
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Location: Wolfeboro, NH
I wouldn't worry about the foot of the jib luffing. If you had an adjustable clew plate, then you could shackle the jib sheets in a lower hole. But what the heck....

To keep the hull from burying, travel out more. If you're trapping out, step wayyyyy back. Put a foot loop on the deck lip just ahead of the rudder casting. Lock your foot in there will keep it from getting pushed out from under you by a wave. You can also save yourself from pitchpoles.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:34 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:15 pm
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Location: Oakland, CA
skipper0802 wrote:
hull trim...while reaching it was difficult to keep the windward hull just out of the water without it rocketing upward. (Because of my son's low body weight- 48lbs. and current experience level, I'm not sure trapping-out would be a benefit).

Trapping out does benefit - try it.
skipper0802 wrote:
Would a 'smoother' method of achieving the most efficient heel angle be to cleat the traveler and adjust with the main sheet?

Hold the tiller with one hand, the main sheet with the other, and the traveler sheet with your third hand.:wink: It's better to let out the traveler more and cleat it, then work the main. Under your conditions and experience, having the traveler in close makes for lots of power to the main in a puff, and consequently, the boat wants to heel more. With the traveler out about half way and the main tight you'll have less sudden hull flying. You could also sheet out more on the jib, but that's more the crew's job than the skipper's.
skipper0802 wrote:
-leeward bow - Maybe a bit more mast rake would move the center-of-effort aft and pull the bows up a bit?

Correct, but. . . judging from the sail number and upper rudder castings, your boat is older than 1983 - this presents a problem with mast and rudder rake adjustment, not to mention jib performance. Around 1983 Hobie lenthened the forestay and shortened the shrouds to allow for more mast rake, which lessens the likelihood of a pitchpole. With more power over the rudders, the rudders needed to be raked forward to compensate for the increased weather helm from the aft raked mast, so Hobie changed the rudder castings to allow for this adjustment. Your rudder castings aren't adjustable and if you rake the mast back more you'll need to redrill the rudder holes to lessen the new increased weather helm.

Additionally, if your jib is original it was not cut for the increased mast rake you seek, which causes considerable luffing of the top portion of the jib. So unless you want to spend money on new sails and rudder castings to go with the new standing rigging (which if you don't know when it was last replaced, then do it soon for peace of mind), you're kind of stuck with the boat as it is.

So now what? Rake the mast as much as you can before the jib luffs and there's too much weather helm on the rudders, move your weight aft, and, until you teach your crew how to work the jib, let the jib out a little more to take downward pressure off the leeward bow.

One more thing: the Anti Pitch Pole Hydro Foils (Hobie part #30110 for $107, and derisively known as "training wheels") easily and quickly bolt to the bow tang. They are not "preventers", but (and don't let the guys on this forum know) they're on my '81 16, and combined with more sailing skill and rigging adjustments, they've been helpful in convincing the rest of my family it's OK to go out with me. By the way, I, too, need new sails and rudder castings.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:57 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:47 pm
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Location: Spokane, WA
Thanks Russiet and Skipshot!

I usually trap-out when I'm solo. Usually the winds 'round here are not steady or strong enough from what I've observed. I did not have a trapseat/bucket small enough to fit him properly for this sortie; (looking for one of those too). Soon enough though. I used to have footstraps near the rudders as you mentioned until I popped part of the fiberglass edge off. I sought another way to secure my footing after that.

I'll try moving the shroud adjusters down one or two holes and observe the effect on the helm and jib.

The boat was made in '74 or '76 and the mast step was filed down before and is really chewed up now. I think Russiet recommended to build-up the metal in a welding shop so I'll try that first. (Refer to my other recent post).

Cheers,
Eric


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:21 am
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Location: USA
You're way under minimum with or without your son on board, so rake is your friend.

Rake back as far as possible while still allowing the mast to rotate (1st hole of the sidestay if possible)

Raise your jib tack up the forestay adjuster plate enough to allow proper sheeting

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:28 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:47 pm
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Location: Spokane, WA
Thanks Big Jib!

I should be able to test this in my driveway within the next couple of days.

Thanks again,
Eric


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:59 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:56 am
Posts: 15
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
My '83 was suffering from really bad pitchpole tendencies, and trapping out did NOTHING to help. Tightening the tramp made for a stiffer boat, but didn't help, either. I raked back the mast to the point that I can go block-block (as suggested in recent Hobie Forum posts), and this has made all the difference in the world.

The reduction in pitch-pole tendency has been dramatic. The hulls don't dive during gusts. (Although I'm not the most experienced sailor, I'm looking forward to getting out in some higher wind, again.) The boat points much better, and so it seems like I am tacking much faster. I was messing around, trying to back up the boat and dime tack, and it seemed like I could hardly keep it in irons.


Some notes on raking back my '83. I bought new shrouds and forestay - being careful to buy the "new" lengths. (One shop tried to sell me older lengths, because I had an older boat.) The shrouds are now positioned three/four holes down to go block-block.

I filled and re-drilled my rudders - see previous post and advice from Matt Miller. I set up ~1-1/2"

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:12 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:28 am
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Location: Switzerland, Europe
Do you have pictures of your raked back masts?
I'm not sure if mine is raked too far back.
I never had pitchpole tendency, but when sailing (in light winds) and I'am sitting at the back of the Hobie the sterns are nearly under water, which I guess should slow the Hobie down (shorter waterline).

Have a nice sailing weekend
Chriss

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:23 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:36 pm
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Location: Wolfeboro, NH
swisscat wrote:
...when sailing (in light winds) and I'am sitting at the back of the Hobie the sterns are nearly under water, which I guess should slow the Hobie down (shorter waterline).
...


Sit at the front in light air.

If I'm racing, I'll adust the mast rake for the day's weather. If free sailing, I leave the mast rake in an all-purpose position.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:19 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:15 pm
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Location: Oakland, CA
swisscat wrote:
when sailing (in light winds) and I'am sitting at the back of the Hobie the sterns are nearly under water, which I guess should slow the Hobie down (shorter waterline).

You are slowing the boat down when the hulls are not level in the water, which means you need to move yourself around the trampoline until the hulls are level again.


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