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 Post subject: stepping the mast
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:08 pm 
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Does anybody know if the bow tang (thingy that holds the brindle wires) and its screws are strong enough to use to step the mast? I was thinking that I could run lines from the forestay through the bow tangs to keep the mast from swaying while I'm stepping it. Tell me what you think.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:39 am 
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Location: Underwater in Mid-Michigan
Strong enough, but don't do it!

Your best bet is to attach your trapeze wires to the front corners of the tramp frame. This should help with the sway problem.

Fair winds,
Nick
1978 H16 "Burt the Cat"

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 Post subject: trap wires
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 1:49 pm 
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nick
everybody keeps tellin me to use my trap wires but i dont have a trap. therefore no wires. also why not use the bow tangs. would i break something? any suggestions help.

thanks,
chris


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:11 am 
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Location: Underwater in Mid-Michigan
Chris:
No trap? Okay, that changes things a little bit.

The reason the bridle wires at the front of the boat wouldn't be a good idea is due to angle, not their strength. The way it's set up, they wouldn't be able to hold the mast straight. It'd still flop about.

You could make your own "mast raising support cables" by using strong line and (after making certain the lengths are correct) attaching the lines to the front corners of the tramp frame. This will give you the correct angle and tension.

Others may have some better ideas, but I think this would work just fine.

Fair Winds,
Nick

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:56 pm 
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Location: San Francisco Bay Area
I've been thinking about swing preventers. Lifting it manually with a line to the trailer mast is working OK, but the winds can grab the bob and off-balance you. I probably won't mess with a gin pole. The issue I was trying to resolve is that once the mast is raised, you need to be able to retrieve the preventer lines, so whatever you use, can't be permanently attached to the jib tang. I think I'll run a loop up to some kind of extra shackle, left in the tang, so that I have both bitter ends to deal with down by the hull. They have to be placed perpendicular to the forward crossbar to work most efficiently. I think the forward support bars for the folding wing seats are located right there, so I need to see about how to do a quick connect/disconnect system there. Maybe a bail and a bowline to close the loop. I'm just brainstorming here. If you guys come up with anything, let me know.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 8:17 pm 
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Location: West Texas
clarsen123 wrote:
I've been thinking about swing preventers. Lifting it
(snip)
about how to do a quick connect/disconnect system there. Maybe a guys come up with anything, let me know.


I'm very interested in this project because I'm moving next month and then I won't have my sailing buddy to help step my mast. Maybe you guys could use MS Paint to sketch your ideas and post them? Then we all might have a better idea of what you have in mind.

Just a thought. :)

Warm regards,

Jim
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:56 am 
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Location: San Francisco Bay Area
I made a ROUGH sketch of my idea of an easily deployable/recoverable mast swing preventer, but can't figure how to post an image on this forum. It basically consists of a line long enough to make a loop around the hull with a snap shackle, go up to a stamped shackle on the forestay tang, then back down to the snap shackle. Obviously, you need two sets. A stamped shackle could be left unobtrusively on the forestay tang for minimal windage. I figured 3/16" low-stretch line would be sufficient. Tie a permanent bowline near the end of the snap shackle, in addition to the bowline to affix the snap shackle. The bowline near the end with the snap shackle will have to be adjusted to find the right pivot point. The idea is to create a closed loop Y that goes around the hull and up to the tang. The loop will allow it to self center, even under tension. The snap shackle end goes around the hull forward of the front crossbar to maintain tension mechanically. If there is trouble passing it around, possibly a gap in the trampoline can be used, as long as some other structural member is captured inside the loop. Make sure to pass the bitter end through the shackle on the tang before leading it back to the snap shackle and tying a bowline in it. This captures the bitter end and closed the loop, making the preventer a rigid member in tension. This will take some adjusting until you get it tensioned just right so it's tight, but still able to get in and out of the snap shackle. Once it's done though, it should be prefit for subsequent use.

Once fitted on both sides, it could work in conjunction with a gin pole, that has it's own lateral stabilizing lines. They don't have to be complicated by recovery issues. The key is to make sure the lower end is as close to perpendicular to the mast's ball as possible. This will keep a constant tension on the preventers as the triangle rotates vertically. This should also be immune to any raking issues. Once the mast has been raised, and the rigging connected properly, it should be relatively easy to undo the snap shackle, thereby releasing any tension in the preventer, undo the bowline on the bitter end, and pull it through the stamped shackle.

The biggest design flaw in this is that it isn't usable to lower the mast. However, I think lowering is less of an issue because you can stabilize the mast two ways: (1) manually hold the mast as it's being lowered by standing on the tramp, with the help of a line to a block/winch on the trailer mast (2) swing the mast to it's extreme position by keeping tension on a trap wire/shroud. The second option will cause the mast to hit the wing seat before it's fully lowered, but you can do it from the ground. At that point, you can let go of your informal preventer, and grab the mast to lower it to the center of the rear crossbar.

Just some thoughts for something that's quick & easy to rig and inexpensive (more $ for beer).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:46 pm 
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Location: West Texas
I'm not exactly sure I'm picturing this well. If you mail it to me I'll post it on my web page and you can link to it with the [img] tags in your post.
JaimeZX (at) aol (dot) com


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:41 am 
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Location: San Francisco Bay Area
OK, thanks to Jaime's help, I'm going to try to post my ROUGH preventer idea. A detailed description of it is above. Please feel free to critique, as we're all in the same boat. The idea is to make a fixed loop to constrain the mast from swinging, which goes up to the forestay tang and back (for recoverability), and to make an adjustable loop around the hull to anchor it. It should be a quick, cheap, and easily adjustable (universal) solution, unless there's something I haven't forseen in the drawing board stage.

Image

Chris ~~(\_~~


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:33 am 
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Location: West Texas
clarsen123 wrote:
Chris ~~(\_~~


Couldn't you run the lines up with the jib halyard? If you did that then you could use it for recovery also. Sort of like in my image below. If you used some kind of like, 3/8" hardware store rope that streches just at *tad* and tied them to the front pylons then the mast should rotate at the same rate as them and it wouldn't involve any weird length changes. Anyone have input on this? Lemme know!

Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:51 am 
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Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Excellent idea, especially for a 16. The geometry is probably really close, and a small stretch may account for any offset. Using a jib halyard would also eliminate the need for a loop, and the extra shackle. They should give you the additional components needed to simplify a recoverable rig.

The only thing I might change is the "slip-knot" feature. I understand it tightens, but I don't like hardware rubbing onto the hull. If you connected to a bowline loop, you'd get almost all of the same advantages without any chafing. I don't think the loop around the hull/pylon has to be tight, as long as the length to the forestay tang stays constant, and the loop can't move aft under tension.

I've got a Getaway, which has no pylons, nor jib halyard. My furling jib is on the forestay. I'm trying to make a more universal rig. I would go with your design if I had a 16. Sorry to make mine more complicated, and forum jumping.


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 Post subject: trap wires
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:02 pm 
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Location: New Brighton, PA
Why not just buy a set of trap wires? Use them to step the mast and then
tie them to the shroud wires and/or think about using them. You could find a used set on ebay.


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 Post subject: steeping the mast
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:55 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:18 pm
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if i wanted to spend money i would just by a mast stepper. im a broke college student trying to take my boat out

c


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:24 am 
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Location: San Francisco Bay Area
I have trap wires, and they are shackled to the forestay tang, but how would they restrain the mast from swinging through it's arc? A section of my trap wires are bungee, which makes them retract out of the way when you're not using them, but even if the geometry of the trap wires would enable you to use them, which they're not (2' aft of the mast), the weight of the mast overpowers the bungee stretch, unless this stretch compensates for the 2' difference. I don't like to exceed the elastic limit of bungee, especially if UV damage is an issue, with the potential for major damage at stake. If the trap wires can be used safely, please explain/diagram and make this a moot point at least for some of us. TIA!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:07 am 
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Location: West Texas
clarsen123 wrote:
If the trap wires can be used safely, please explain/diagram and make this a moot point at least for some of us. TIA!

I think they mean to attach the thimble of the trap wire to the front pylon so that there is no stretching done and therefore it wouldn't sway. This would work best if the trap wire extends to (or just less than) the front pylon. If it hangs below the tramp rail then you'd have to figure out a better way to secure it. Otherwise I think I'm going to try this method and use just a rope looped around the front pylon with a clip on it to attach to the trap wire thimble. See my graphic a few posts above - except instead of having a rope go all the way to the mast tang, the rope just goes to the trap wire thimble and the trap wire goes up as usual. Make sense? :)


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