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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:27 pm 
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Guy from dead boat society wrote:
Just my smart alecky opinion,
Karl is a young man that wants the latest greatest go fast goodie on the market .....
Who cares if there is a fleet to sail in !
Sorry Karl ....



Not true, I just don't want to haul a 450lb boat up the beach, or be able to relax going downwind. Anything I've ever raced, I've done so to go fast. And I do care if it has a fleet to sail in, even though I love the FX, I'm going to be dumping it for a F16, because its the same concept, but with some pretty good numbers. BTW, there was seventeen FXones at the Hobie Europeans, take a wild guess at the number of H18's?


Guy who's orginal Mustang was from Cortez's ship wrote:
Your turn
I don't know any old jokes. If you have a skin color, (including white), were fat, gay, straight, a descendent of somewhere, or the believer in any religion, I'd have something. But old, who rips on someone for surviving?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:16 pm 
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I'm one of Must's buddies--Fleet 61, Boulder, CO. And Must's a mere child--I have 10 years on him!
Thanks for the suggestion about the trap lines, but I've done that a couple of times, and with our long tows, it plays hell with the lines, so I remove them and coil them with the shrouds, etc. I've even got one of those mesh carriers, which used to work for wires, but not for our trap lines. I probably could untie the knot and take each trap line completely off, which would help. Has anyone tried some type of shackle at the top for easy removal?
Just a brain fart, I ought to get old Steve on my FX, maybe I can pry him off of the 18's!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:31 pm 
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FX,
Hey there Doc, welcome to the forum.
I'll sail that FX any time you'll let me,
But they're gonna have to carry me off of the H-18 in a box.
Either that or light it on fire and push both me and boat out to sea. :D

Stephen

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:45 pm 
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FX293 wrote:
Has anyone tried some type of shackle at the top for easy removal?



There's a hole in the tang just above the one that is used for the shrouds/forestay. I put a small shackle in that, sliced a loop in the end of my trap lines, and just looped it around that. The way the manual says to do it is plain ol' stupid.

I put the trap lines behind the shrouds, but run them down the front side of the mast. Then I put three ball ties down the mast. Probably the biggest things is I use a bag from one of those fold up chairs over the base of the mast when trailering to keep the handles from flopping around. I trailer with the sail track up so with the trap lines running down the front, they also get pinned in the mast crutch.

The trap lines are just about the only piece of rigging I leave on the boat when going down the road. :D


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:52 am 
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JJ wrote:
Oh, like all the old fellers, maybe it's just that Karl's now in line for A cat. :wink:

Would have sworn though that the FX was little more like a small version of the A cat...


Interesting point, JJ, which leads to something I was wondering about. Isn't the FX-one larger than an A-cat? At least that's what it looks like to me. The FX looks like it has a lot more hull volume, especially if it can sail two-up.

Karl? Since you're looking at A-cats, how does the FX compare to an A in size?

Back home in Washington, DC, there's some great A-cat racing on the West River, South of Annapolis. Having a competitive class scene is a key factor in terms of long-term enjoyment. At least in my book. But on an A-cat, you're out of luck if you want to bring a passenger along, unless you like to play submarine... :lol:

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Sailing vintage Hobie Cats in West Africa.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:50 am 
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Karl, thanks for the suggestions on the trap lines. Actually, what I'll probably do is remove them when I tow if I put a shackle separate, and maybe leave the rest of the rigging on. We'll see

And Steve, we CAN arrange to light both you and your 18--kind of like a Viking funeral--only you won't be dead! The Good Doctor.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:40 pm 
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Quote:
Karl? Since you're looking at A-cats, how does the FX compare to an A in size?

Karl is actually on the way to F-16 land, apparently. Unless someone can talk him out of it. 8)

The FX may be larger in some respects, but if you Wiki or google A-class catamarans, the A is a foot longer and sleeker.

It's main claim to fame is the 165 lb weight. No limit on mast height.

I was picking on Karl because I think the F-16 people are really just a small vocal class of sailors, in my opinion. And the F-16 is just an A in disguise...


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:00 pm 
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JJ wrote:
Karl is actually on the way to F-16 land, apparently. Unless someone can talk him out of it. 8)


I realized that further down the thread. It's just funny how thin the line is between an FX-one, F-16, and A-cat -- once you get down to the specs. In practice, however, they are obviously very different boats.

Quote:
The FX may be larger in some respects, but if you Wiki or google A-class catamarans, the A is a foot longer and sleeker. It's main claim to fame is the 165 lb weight. No limit on mast height.


The A-cat is not just sleeker. It seems to have much less flotation. Thus the FX's ability to carry a passenger, while the A-cat will pretty much sink with two on board.

Quote:
I was picking on Karl because I think the F-16 people are really just a small vocal class of sailors, in my opinion. And the F-16 is just an A in disguise...


Based on my experience in the Mid-Atlantic area of the US, the F-16 is gaining more traction than the F-18, and is certainly not anything like an A-cat. At West River Sailing Club, where I spent a little bit of time before shipping out to West Africa, there are currently only two one-design classes: the Nacra 20 and the A-cat. This is apparently due mainly to the often light winds in the Chesapeake Bay -- both N20 and A-cat have a high sail-to-weight ratio. However, if there is going to be a third OD class at WRSC, word on the street is that it's going to be the F-16, not the F-18! Apparently, the club is just a boat or two short of having the F-16 become a OD class at the club.

I believe that's because the F-16 is polyvalent enough to be a good boat to sail both one-up and two-up, just like the Hobie FX-one. The obvious difference being that the FX-one is Hobie-only, whereas the F-16 class offers a wide range of choices between various manufacturers. As so often, it boils down to Hobie Cat's one design, one-manufacturer philosophy -- versus the open F-18 and F-16 classes, where any manufacturer is welcome.

Last point: No way the "F-16 is just an A-cat in disguise!" As I pointed out above, if you add a second crew to an A-cat it will sink, or at least turn into a drag anchor. With the F-16 class, the whole point is to add crew and sail two-up. As far as I can tell, the F-16 and A-cats are like apples and oranges.

With all of this said, what the H17, FX-one, and F-16 -- but not the A-cat -- have in common, is the ability to sail well either one-up or two-up. That's what's absolutely awesome about all three of these boats/classes.

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Sailing vintage Hobie Cats in West Africa.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:59 pm 
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Actually, the main reason you don't take a 2nd person on an A-cat is because you'll break it. Getting an 18ft catamaran down to 165lbs doesn't happen by making things stronger, and the "A" just isn't rated for that kind of loads. As far as volume goes they seem to have plenty, and it doesn't take that much when you shed 160 lbs of boat, or in the case of f18, 240 lbs of boat+ X amount for the crew. They're cool boats, but I know how I am with stuff. Its not nearly as brittle as people think they are, but they do need some gently use when doing everything but being on the water.

I'm completely shocked at how HCE dropped the ball on the iCat, a bit shorter, a few less sq/ft of main and they'd have a boat that would've fit nicely into the F16 class. Instead they gave birth to another bastard, which like the FXone, may sail great but it just won't catch on. I've tried like hell for the last three years to get these schmucks around here on one, but spinnakers are apparently quite spooky, and the H16 is just the cats ass. So I've given up on them.

I may just hang onto the boat if I'll be doing open class though, the PN# frickin' rocks on the FXone. I always have the highest number out of the spinnaker boats when I do a handicap event.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:33 pm 
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Quote:
It's just funny how thin the line is between an FX-one, F-16, and A-cat -- once you get down to the specs. In practice, however, they are obviously very different boats.

This and all you say afterward, I have no complaint with.

Part of my comments are still just to gig Karl.

The other part is that I am peeved with the problems of the performance cat market, I guess.

For many, I may be way out on a limb, but, IMO, the H16 and H17 take more ability, or skill, to sail at a basic level than the some of the performance classes. When you are out for just an average sail, tacking or preventing a bow dive, for example, take good skills. H16 and H17 are tough as trucks and good setups as beachcats.

Gently sailed, the performance classes tack easier and they wave pierce. They have another whole gear that does take first-class skills -- but that is not gentle sailing.

But what the hay is the deal with the complexity of setup and the fragility of the performance boats?! The A-class is too fragile and carries no load. Some of F-16s were too fragile. Some are parts nightmares. Some are setup nightmares. As FX293 said, the FX mast is a monster.

So, if you want a totally hot boat, then get the bigger performance boat.

If you want a versatile performance boat in a mid-range size for family sailor who wants the option of both easy sailing and performance sailing, you deal with hull fragility, rigging puzzles, or phone poles for masts.

That said, the Falcon may be the beginning of the mid-range performance cats of the future -- looks fairly solid, mast looks right proportion to the boat, rigging looks within the limits of simplicity and intuitiveness. Those virtues in a mid-range performance boat are what will make performance sailing take off.

But also, having said that, I am sticking with the FX. I like the boat. It makes me smile. One day, I will make the riddles of its setup more humane...

Rant off...


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:38 am 
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wow lot's of great comments here gentlemen.

Karl, you hit it with the iCat, so close to the F16 mark. Unfortunately, unlike here in USA, the F18 is king in EU (or specifically France, where HCE [Hobie Cat Europe] calls home) and the F16 is not even on the radar. :roll: Consequently, although the (Hobie) company stepping out with some state of the art, 21st century, performance designs is not taking the USA buyer into consideration.

IMO, one HCE boat that could have lead the "smucks" (raises hand), or smuck wannabes, towards spin boats was/is the Hobie Pearl. The roller furling screacher/reacher/hooter/whateva sail I think is a brilliant compromise for converting big jib sailors to three sail boats. We all know that ain't gonna happen, as HC here has repeatedly stated they wont be importing that boat.

The Viper looks to be a smart evolution of the F16. I believe it has the same superwing mast beginning with the Taipan, and then Blade? right Karl? Or is it a heavier wall extrusion? Do the F16 (Viper) & F18 (Capricorn) use the same mast extrusion? We know, that like the FXone, the beam extrusions are of the F18 big brother. We've seen some photos of the Blade mast with some pretty serious stresses on them, and no breakage. Is that a concern of yours Karl? The Falcon is a nice step forward as well.

To me the BIGGEST consideration with a new/newer boat is weight. I've found I (by myself) can handle a 245 pound boat out the water easily and load on/off a trailer. Even with a bit of a grade. I'm not getting any younger, finding it harder to get consistent crew, and the Hobie 17 doesn't fit the weight consideration. Besides, to find a H17 in decent shape, I'd be spending a considerable chunk of change, and for a "dead boat" class.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:15 pm 
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J_Eaton wrote:
wow lot's of great comments here gentlemen.

Karl, you hit it with the iCat, so close to the F16 mark. Unfortunately, unlike here in USA, the F18 is king in EU (or specifically France, where HCE [Hobie Cat Europe] calls home) and the F16 is not even on the radar. :roll: Consequently, although the (Hobie) company stepping out with some state of the art, 21st century, performance designs is not taking the USA buyer into consideration.


Eventually the H16 will have a spinnaker, the US HCA can't hold out on this forever.

J_Eaton wrote:
The Viper looks to be a smart evolution of the F16. I believe it has the same superwing mast beginning with the Taipan, and then Blade? right Karl? Or is it a heavier wall extrusion? Do the F16 (Viper) & F18 (Capricorn) use the same mast extrusion? We know, that like the FXone, the beam extrusions are of the F18 big brother. We've seen some photos of the Blade mast with some pretty serious stresses on them, and no breakage. Is that a concern of yours Karl? The Falcon is a nice step forward as well.




I don’t think the Cap, and Viper use the same extrusion, I’m about 99% sure it’s the same as the Taipan, and Blade/Falcon masts.
I'm not concerned about the masts, but the early Blades were not that good of a boat, they had a lot of failures. And the beams are waaaaay too small in my opinion. I don’t think the new ones have the issues that the early blades have. The Falcon is definitely a leap ahead of the blade, much better hull design, looks like it’s well built, but it still has tiny beams, but now one is D shaped, the website is also a bit deceiving as the weight that is listed is for a uni-rig with a carbon mast. I’m real impressed with the build quality of the Viper, but its heavy compared to the other models, it weighs in at 265lbs?, but it can be driven hard. Huge bows on that thing. I spent 3 days on one and my only complaint was the Ronstan tiller connectors make the steering feel sluggish, as bending those connectors to turn takes some effort. That’s easily fixed by using the Hobie style connectors.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:13 pm 
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Africat wrote:
At West River Sailing Club, where I spent a little bit of time before shipping out to West Africa, there are currently only two one-design classes: the Nacra 20 and the A-cat. This is apparently due mainly to the often light winds in the Chesapeake Bay -- both N20 and A-cat have a high sail-to-weight ratio. However, if there is going to be a third OD class at WRSC, word on the street is that it's going to be the F-16, not the F-18! Apparently, the club is just a boat or two short of having the F-16 become a OD class at the club.


F-16s have been officially granted fleet status at WRSC. We are 8 and expect to be up to at least 10 by April-2010. No F-18s. A-Cats & N20s are still going strong. All 3 classes play nicely together and frequently share the starting line. Total active racing beachcat count is 40+ on the West River now.

Kris
F-16 WRSC/WRCRA
http://www.F16USA.net


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