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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:18 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:55 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Greetings,

Excellent forum--glad to have found it. I'm in the market for a fun Hobie to teach my boys to sail on a lake "up north". Below is a link to an 89 H17 "sport" for sale on ebay. From what I've read on this forum, the sport version of the H17 doesn't have a boom, and should have a Jib. Can anyone look at this boat and confirm it's ID? Also, any input on the overall shape and completeness of this boat from any of you "old salts" would be greatly appreciated.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Hobie-Ca ... enameZWDVW

Best,

Hayes

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Got out of town on a boat going to southern islands, sailing a reach before a following sea...


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 Post subject: SE not a Sport
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:01 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:27 am
Posts: 539
Location: League City, TX
Hayes:

That is a SE not a Sport. That is the class legal race version. Boat looks in pretty good shape. I paid $600 for mine when I got it and it was a basket case. This looks in real good shape for a 89. Check the sail for delamination. It may need to be replaced. Trailer tongue can be replaced, I had to do it to mine. Her are some of the changes I made to mine. The are fun boats. Let me know if you have nay more questions.

http://www.thebeachcats.com/modules.php ... _album.php


Doug Snell
Hobie 17
"Stress Free" #007


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:58 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:20 pm
Posts: 149
Location: Campbell, CA
I agree this is a great forum, it is a great place to get to the point, other forums bore you with chatter. Welcome!

The H17 is a great choice for your ?teenage? (I hope) boys as long as they know the righting technique, and have the required weight of about 190ea in order to right it.

Ebay boat:

It is not a Sport as Doug mentioned.

It is not worth $1000 (current bid).

The sail looks trashed. Expensive to replace: $1000 +/-.

The wings sockets have home-made reinforcing plates (when you have socket failure, the damage is deep inside, not on the surface where the plate has been installed. I bet the hull takes on a lot of water.

The tongue on the trailer is not a simple unbolt it - bolt on a new one (which I have done) the tongue is welded to the trailer frame. Not a big deal if you have a grinder and a welder.

Old style gooseneck - they tend to break.

I am seeing a $500 parts boat in this one. 1980s H17's are superb! But in my opinion (I've owned three) this is not a good example.

Dan
2003 H17 SE / Sport


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 Post subject: Watch but don't bid
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:27 am
Posts: 539
Location: League City, TX
Hayes:

After further look I agree with Dan. Plates on back wing hole scare me. Mine had been flipped in the surf and both port holes were ripped out. I had to get a used hull for $550. I would watch item and see if it is re-listed again and then make an offer. There are other boats out there. Just don't get a lemon. There GREAT boats.

Also Dan, I am new end cap and super gooseneck after mine broke in race. They are GREAT.

Doug


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 Post subject: many thanks
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:30 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:55 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Dan and Doug,

Can't thank you enough. Excellent advice/observations.

Best,

Hayes

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Got out of town on a boat going to southern islands, sailing a reach before a following sea...


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:45 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:39 am
Posts: 471
Location: Finger Lakes, NY
Welcome to the Forum !!

First - great signature line "Southern Cross" CSN reunion LP titled 'Daylight Again" - 1982 (I think) as pretty a song as there ever was since "Helplessly Hoping" CSN 1969.

Second, the seller of this boat, PineTrailCamp has EXCELLENT ratings by other buyers. Not that it couldn't happen, but I have a feeling that a non-profit is not looking to mess anyone up. Also possible that you could buy the boat, declare "value in kind" of, say, $600, and write off the rest of the purchase price as a Charitable Donation on your taxes. 8) The boat was probably a donation to the camp, so whatever they get is for their program.

Third, I think the boat is a pretty good deal and definitely worth $1000. The trailer alone is probably worth $500. Sport or SE doesn't matter. I like the full-boom rig because it allows better tuning and sail shape.

Specifically:

Trailer hitch - A little scrub with WD-40 and steel wool, followed by Rust-Oleum rusty metal primer and your favorite color paint. I doubt there is anything wrong structurally. It looks better than mine. :oops:

Repairs to starboard hull - In my experience as a Camp Director, things that get repaired are usually done by a "resident expert" volunteer who knows what he's doing. Usually. I am REALLY interested in how the repairs were done however. E-mail pinetrailcamp and ask them how they were done. I THINK that someone actually cut the deck out around the wing-sockets to repair and then glassed them back in. It doesn't look like a "deck-plate" as such to me.

The sail looks dirty. That happens when people don't store them properly. Not too hard to clean. Again, ask the seller if it is delaminated.

The tramp looks newer or is an upgrade -I think standard issue up until about 1990 was a solid vinyl tramp with a diagonal lashing. Wings too.

I would definitely replace the standing rigging if it is original and perhaps the sheets and halyard depending on wear.

Last is a question for Dan - 190 lbs ea? We got a 17 up with 330 lbs just two weeks ago and I can get it up with a solo-righting kit myself at 155 lbs- no Hobie bob. What is the recommended weight ? I have no idea, I just know what works :)

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The fact that this windy world is largely covered in water obviously means that man was meant to sail.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:38 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:20 pm
Posts: 149
Location: Campbell, CA
I will concede on the trailer tongue point. It may not be damaged inside.

But here is my argument against this boat at $1000:

How many times have you replied to an ad with pics, to find the items in better condition that the pics show? This one looks bad in the pics. Rely on your experience here.

That sail looks bad, a 160 square foot red flag suggesting this boat was not well cared for. Begs lots of questions - Were the hulls drained after use? The bearings on the trailer kept greased? Cross ar bolts kept tight? Etc... highly doubtful - this was not someone's pride and joy.

I see nothing to imply there was a quality repair hidden under that metal wing socket panel. It looks like an amatuer band-aid. In addition, the standard repair for a socket failure involves an adjacent access port. None visible. which is another indication that the repair was done by someone with no expeience in this unique problem.

Another issue; the sockets could have just been overloaded, but if an accident caused it, there may be other structural issues at the hull/crossbar area. But lets say it was overload, if the starboard sockets had damage from overload that happened one windy day with over 350lbs on the wing, what are the chances that they remained on a starboard tack, starboard wing the entire day? I bet the port side is damaged as well, just not bad enough to involve metal.

190LBS: I'm playing it safe, It is a single hand boat, therefore one kid may be on it - if he wieghs less than 190 and is inexperieced in righting he may have difficulty. Two teenagers of nearly any weight can get the thing righted in no time. Sorry I wasn't very clear.

I hope my tone is not too brusque, I've just spent so much time repairing these boats that I need to pipe up when I see a fellow newbee enthusiast considering a bad boat for the price of a good boat. I have seen worn out H17's go for much less. I bought a beautiful 86 for $1000, I regret selling that one! (Last May a crusty one, near me, went for about $300)

Thanks,

Dan
2003 H17 SE / Sport


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 Post subject: Brusque ?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 3:11 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:39 am
Posts: 471
Location: Finger Lakes, NY
:lol: Being old and grumpy myself, I have a hard time recognizing "brusque" :wink: Your intentions are good and so are mine, now I can't wait to what Mr Hwyngarden decides. It's all good.

How many times have I bought something that looks better than the picture ? I am always suspicious of that, but less so when there are about 25 pictures from all angles. Of course you can make anything look good with the right angle - even I don't look half bad if you squint and hold my picture across the room :roll: In this case, I am also going by the sellers reputation on line and comments from buyers. They seem like straight shooters.

Was this someone's pride an joy ? Doubtful, but like mine, was it just tucked into a barn and let sit for years ? Mine was beat but had no wear as such. Definitely grease the bearings before hauling it though. And put the wings up in towing mode too.

I don't think that we can tell anything about the repairs except that they were not done by installing a port. I do know that a local H17 was repaired by cutting out the deck all around the opening, doing repair, and glassing the deck back in. In fact, I think the guy put a piece of pvc tube in place of the fiberglass tube. Not sure.

Good point on the 190 lb kid (s). As we know, getting one of these back up can be a challenge - make note of that Hwyngarden.

So, does he buy it or not ? Should we bet for beer 8)

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The fact that this windy world is largely covered in water obviously means that man was meant to sail.


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 Post subject: Physical Exam Findings
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:22 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:55 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Wow guys--didn't realize I was going to cause such a stir!! It's been entertaining reading your posts!

I went and checked out the boat today. Spent over an hour going over it and this is what I found.


* Pontoons were in excellent shape as far as I could tell. I pushed, poked, and prodded aggressively over every inch and found no soft spots at all. The yellow paint was slightly oxidized, but nothing a good wax/buff job wouldn't cure. There were very minimal marks/scratches on either of them. The small "ding" inside the port hull that had been repaired was just that--small and uneventful. The undersides of the pontoons barely looked worn at all.

* the trampoline and the wings were also in excellent shape. They supported me easily at 225lbs. The mesh was strong and looked fairly new. The only parts that looked a little worn were the leather? trim that wrapped around the outside of the tramp where it inserted into the frame that holds the tramp.

* regarding the starboard pontoon that had the wing sockets repaired--I'll try my best to explain what I found. The aluminum brackets weren't just a top plate like it appeared. It was the top plate, but also had the socket as well with a solid bottom. Best way to describe it is like a fishing rod holder on the back of a sportfishing boat. They were solid aluminum, screwed down to the top of the pontoon with around 8 screws, and there was some sort of caulking/sealer underneath to seal it off. I thought it looked like a nice repair. I can't obviously predict what it looked like inside, but nothing was loose or soft around the repairs, and the wing fit easily into the sockets and supported me fine.

* The mast and boom appeared fine, as did the rigging and cross supports to the hulls. The centerboards for each hull looked great and went up and down easily. The tiller assembly also looked fine. The tackle looked in good shape and was made by Harken. The lines were a little worn, but probably perfectly functional.

* Trailer was a 1989 model and with the exception of the rusty locking device on the tongue, looked fine to me. I can't remember the brand, but it was made in Jackson Michigan.

**and then there's the main. That's another story. The sail bag was in tatters and calling it a bag is pushing it!! As expected from the pictures, the main was filthy--overrun with mildew that doesn't look cleanable. It had a couple dime size burn holes in it. It had several spots that were delaminating. The laminate all over was crispy/crinkly--not sure if thats good or bad, but I didn't think it felt good. There was moisture inbetween the laminate and the sail in several spots, and the mildew was rampant on the inside of a lot of the laminate. The stitching for the most part seemed OK, but had a few spots that had runs.

So, that's my report. Let me know what ya'll think. I noticed the price is up to $1250 now on ebay. I'm pretty sure it needs a new main--I'm curious what you guys think of my description and if you agree. Doesn't a new main run around $1000? If so, I'm thinking the price on the boat is getting a little high compared to the deals I've heard of elsewhere.

Again, thanks for your interest, and I look forward to your responses. GO TIGERS!!

Best,

Hayes

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Got out of town on a boat going to southern islands, sailing a reach before a following sea...


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 Post subject: What is your budget?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:13 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:27 am
Posts: 539
Location: League City, TX
Hayes:

How much money do you have to spend? A good squaretop will cost you about $1200 and another $250 for battens. I would not get a stock Hobie sail unless you have a LOT of 17's around to race.

Doug


Last edited by DougHobie17 on Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:55 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:20 pm
Posts: 149
Location: Campbell, CA
It sounds better than I thought, but I'm still down on it.

The socket repair sounds shoddy, if it is done right it should not need any sealant or a plate. A static test on land does not equal the forces while sailing.

I estimate a good socket repair will run you about $300 to $400. Being that the hulls are not soft or beach worn, a good sail might make the deal acceptable depending on the repair services available near you. But combine the price of the boat, the sail price and the hull repair (assuming only one socket is damaged) whenyou push off the dock your wallet will be $2500 thinner.

Sorry to be so negative, but my math says this is not a good deal.

Best,

Dan
2003 H17 SE / Sport


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 10:55 pm
Posts: 221
Location: Issaquah, WA
:) I suggest a pass on this one also. Unless you can pick up a good used sail, at a good price, the total cost is going too high. There should be better H-17's out there. The wing sockets sound like trouble. The H-17's in 1989 did tend to be pretty good. My Son's 1989, Stars and Stripes model does have several areas beefed up, compaired to my 1986.

This yellow H-17 looks a lot like Kitsey's boat I used at the Mega in 2002. It was also on the heavy side, 360#, and was prone to taking on a lot of water.

Caleb Tarleton, H-17, 1986, sail 6446


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:48 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:39 am
Posts: 471
Location: Finger Lakes, NY
Good morning H and everyone. I have my coffee - let's rock,

I say pass on this one too. The sail is REALLY shot and it is not worth more than $1000. If you look at the pictures the sail is not raised to the top of the mast either - maybe it is so bad that you can't even use it temporarily to see if you like sailing a 17.

A comment on the repair. Hobies orignal design is shoddy. That is why we are all running around repairing them. IMO this "repair" is the way Hobie should build the boats in the first place and it should be available as a repair kit from Hobie.

Speaking from experience, I have seen a repair like this. In fact, the repair started with ONE damaged socket but worked so well that the owner, a machinist, cut the other three, good, sockets out and replaced them ON PURPOSE. :shock: I told him to patent the contraption.

This falls under the category of "Things That Work" (Matt, maybe we need a "Cheapskates and Things that work forum - (like using a twist lock extension handle from a paint-supply store or swimming pool place instead of buying a twist lock extension from a marine supply place)

As usual, I have a question for Dan - $300 to $400 to repair sockets? I think I did all mine for the price of 4 deck ports, 4 fiberglass repair kits with cloth and 3 stainless hose-clamps per socket (I wrap the hose clamps around the broken tube to pull the cracked socket together and then glass over them. They add strength)

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The fact that this windy world is largely covered in water obviously means that man was meant to sail.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:05 pm 
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Location: Campbell, CA
My estimate is based on paid repairs I have had done by a local boat builder / fiberglass repar guy.

Dan
2003 H17 SE / Sport


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 Post subject: Thanks Dan
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:15 pm 
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Location: Finger Lakes, NY
Check the recipe for repair that I brought back to the top of the forum. On one hand it isn't that hard BUT on the other hand, if I did this repair for somebody, I'd want $300 for it because it isn't that easy either :shock:

Back to Dan's original point Mr.W. No matte how you shake it out, you should be able to find a decent H 17 in sail-away condition for about $2500 with a trailer. Good luck ! 8)

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