Hobie 17 ratings question

Is a hobie 17 sport a 2 man boat?

On my ratings listing it shows a Hobie 17 as 74 and a 17 sport slp 2-up as a 74.5

We have a member who conveniently want's to say that "slp" means sail plan and 2-up is referring to sails....so "sailplan 2 sails" lol. Instead of SLOOP and 2-up meaning you have to have 2 people on your boat if you want to run the jib. So he wants to be able to run the jib AND take a slower rating while sailing solo...

Checking the class rules I don't see any mention of the sport or class minimum weight etc. Can someone document something here so I don't have to argue with this guy.

I've heard everything from, "it only has 1 trapeze so it's only a 1 man boat."
"These hulls can't support the weight of 2 people"
"You just want to correct over me even more"

Looking at the North American Portsmouth Yardstick Table of Pre-Calculated Classes, it's clear that 1 up a 17 is rated at 74.0 and a 17 that is 2 up is rated 74.5. (see page 12). As there are no class rules addressing this, the North American Portsmouth rules are the ones you use. His argument makes no sense as how else do you explain the difference between 1 up and 2 up then 1 or 2 sailors? Remember that all rules use the common definition of a word unless specifically defined by the rules. And notice that 1 up does not refer to "slp" or define the boat as having one sail in any fashion. (Class rules do define a Hobie 17 as having only a main sail.)

Notice also that class rules only define the main sail as class legal. A Hobie 17 sport is not "class" legal, although it can be allowed to race in non-Hobie events. Minimum weight is also not defined for a Hobie 17 sport. Again, this is fine as the Hobie 17 sport is not an official Hobie racing class.

If he wants to race a Hobie 17, he gets one sail per class rules. If he wants to race a Hobie 17 sport, he can have a jib, but he's stuck with the North American Portsmouth Yardstick rating for a Hobie 17 sport. If he doesn't like it, personally I'd send him someplace else. It won't surprise me that this guy ends up the source of more protests than all of the rest of your fleet.

By the way, I'd personally run his time under both 74 and 74.5, just to see whether this helps him or not. You don't have to tell him the results if it doesn't show that either rating doesn't help him. And my guess is he's not going to be doing well enough for it to make any difference.

Jim Clark-Dawe

Thanks for that. The issue is he says that regardless of 1 or 2 people, everything is always done by weight. At least most clubs if you weight 300lbs and run a H18 by yourself, you weight more than the class minimum so we don't give you the single handed penalty since you weight the same.

In his case he claims since there is no class minimum for a H17 sport, he shouldn't take the penalty for being single handed since the only listed class minimum weight is 160. If the case is there was never a class minimum weight for it then I will inform the RC that it has to be 2 people regarless if it's 2 kids or 2 adults. The problem is he of course WANTS the H17 sport rating since it's slower, but doesnt want to take the "sailing a 2 handed boat solo" penalty. The whole have your cake and eat it too thing

No, it's not done by weight alone. It's done by weight, sail area, and hull length. With a jib, you go from 168 sq ft to 200 sq ft. In other words, about a 20% increase in sail area.

Far as I'm concerned, he can trim the weight down all he wants. Unless you sail in light winds, the 17 is a solo boat with a weight rule of 160 pounds. Reality is you need 170 - 190 pounds on it in any sort of decent wind. Never sailed a sport, by my guess is you'd need at least 200 pounds to keep it upright and probably more. Unless he's a big boy, the boat itself will impose a weight limit.

Unless your races are really long, a 0.5 difference doesn't amount to a lot of time. Unless you're crossing the line at almost the same time as the other boat, 0.5 of a difference isn't going to help you much.

The rule for him is real simple. He can race a class legal and defined 17 with one person, or he can race a 17 sport with a jib and take that time.

Jim Clark-Dawe

Do you think it’s more appropriate to use a standard h17 rating and add the jib penalty, or use the slower sport rating and use the “2 man boat being sailed solo” penalty?

TAMU (Aggie fan?):

Sorry....late to the party...was still typing during the last couple of posts...this is my edited reply...

Neither is technically correct since the factors are for deviations from class rules and there are no class rules for the H17 Sport. That said, the H17 rating with the JS (small jib) correction seems more appropriate because the crew weight corrections (L1-L4) are based on weight, not number of crew. (I'm not seeing a "2 man boat being sailed solo penalty".)

Is this regatta already under way? If so, I appreciate your wanting to work with the guy some. Either way, though, he should be reminded that it's the competitor's responsibility (not the RC) to know his correct rating and register using it. All the way up until the protest time limit for the last race of the regatta, he could be challenged by another boat (or sanctioned by the RC) and DSQ'd for all races. I know people that insist on racing with non-class legal equipment. While that may not seem like a big deal in most instances, I try to make them understand that they could be DSQ'd for the whole event and not even realize it until the racing's completed. All it takes is one other competitor who would benefit by having the "illegal" boat DSQ'd, and that desired benefit could be as little as one point in one race.

And here's a bunch more crap I had already typed...

Discussion of the stock H17 is really irrelevant to the argument, since the H17 is a class legal boat, and the H17 Sport is not (no class rules). I can't find where 1-up, 2-up, or slp are actually defined, but, in the Multihull Class Table, many of the boats (e.g., Mystere 4.3) are clarified as both Uni (or sloop and/or spi) and 1-up (or 2-up or both) all at the same time (and sometimes with the same rating). It should therefore be obvious (with the exception of your H17-Sport guy, maybe) that 1-up and 2-up refer to number of crew, slp means sloop (main + headsail), spi means spinnaker, etc.

His "everything is done by weight" statement is wrong, but i think your "single-handed penalty" one is incorrect too...it's the class and Portsmouth rules for the specific boat that govern. In your H18 example, for instance, the class rules don't include a minimum number of crew (some boats have it). An H18 can race class legal (take the 71.4 rating under Portsmouth) at min. 295 lbs. crew weight (or at min. 245 lbs. and carrying the allowed max. 50 lbs. to reach 295), regardless of the number of crew. That's the rule, and it should be implemented accordingly at all clubs, not just most. Similarly, since there is no minimum number of crew, there is no "single-handed penalty" for the H18. Rather than of the number of crew, the correction is for being less than minimum crew weight, and the factor varies based on how much less (L1 through L4 on the Multihull Modification Factors chart).

Later in the Portsmouth Tables, after the Multihull Modification Factors, there is a list of Multihull Weights...Min. Crew Weight, Min. No. of Crew, Min. Boat Weight, and Max. Added Weight (to meet minimum crew weight). This table is based on class rules (where they exist), and the data is all nl (not listed) for the H17-Sport. (Again, there are no class rules, so the data does not exist.) Therefore, the argument about crew weight for the H17 Sport is moot, too. However, to comply with the H17 Sport Portsmouth rating, his only "legal" option is to race 2-up (with crew and regardless of his/their weight) at the 74.5 rating. I don't think the rigging is otherwise much different, so it would be reasonable to allow him to ditch the jib, meet all the other H17 class rules for crew weight, etc., and take the 74.0 rating for the stock H17. Of course there are other "illegal" options...like letting him have it his way if he pays your bar tab for the weekend.

_________________
Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16

And just to throw another curve, is he using a boom? The H17 is a uni rig with a boom. The Sport Cat has a jib and a boomlet. I suspect the loss of a boom would be more penalty than the jib would help.
So if he's doing a frankenboat, ie, jib AND boom, he's outside any rules IMHO.

_________________
Yet another Bob!
"Firefly" - 2012 Hobie Getaway with wings and spinnaker
"Sparky" - 1978 Sunfish (OK, it's not a Hobie, but it's a fun little craft)
Too many canoes and kayaks

What the heck is a boomlet

The L4 definition on my DP-N spreadsheet literally says “for a crew weight less than 70% of class minimum or for single handing a sloop not having class min crew weights”

I was looking at the general instructions for the North American Portsmouth rules and came across this sentence in the application section: "Race committees should require all participants to race in class configuration."

Notice the use of the word "require." This isn't giving the Race Committee a choice. If the Race Committee has no choice, the Race Committee cannot give the sailor a choice.

Class configuration is either a single person Hobie 17 with just a main sail, or a Hobie 17 sport with a jib and a two man crew. That is what the Race Committee is required to accept.

Where this sailor wants to do is go under the section of the paragraph following the above sentence: When no class rules or
class organization exists, race committees should establish that a particular entrant conforms to the base boat description outlined in this Handbook. Where modifications exist, corresponding handicap adjustments should be assessed by standard factors (see Table VI) or by the judgment of the Race Committee.

But notice this section only applies where there are no class rules or class organization. An example of where this section applies is a sailor showing up with a Hobie 17 with a spinnaker that is permanently mounted on the boat. Then the Race Committee can start making adjustments. Here it seems like it's easy for the sailor to comply with the requirements for either a Hobie 17 or a Hobie 17 sport.

Here we have a sailor who is trying to bend the rules to their benefit. Quite simply I'd be at the most restrictive view of the rules that I could adopt. And as the Race Committee is required to have boats that meet class standards, the sailor gets to decide which version of the Hobie 17 he wants to sail, No adjustments.

A boomlet is easy to understand once you've seen one, but hard to explain. Basically it is a mainsail that is not attached to the boom along the foot and is attached only at the tack and clew.

Jim Clark-Dawe

Thanks for pointing that out. All this time I had not realized that the L4 description varied from those for L1-L3.

_________________
Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16

The regular 17 has a boom with rotation control, outhaul, downhaul and the usual stuff. The 17 Sport came with a "boomlet", a short, maybe 2 feet long, section of boom that attaches at the clew of the mainsail. Similar to the plate on the Getaway. You lose a lot of ability to shape the sail without a boom.

https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=52193

_________________
Yet another Bob!
"Firefly" - 2012 Hobie Getaway with wings and spinnaker
"Sparky" - 1978 Sunfish (OK, it's not a Hobie, but it's a fun little craft)
Too many canoes and kayaks