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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:51 pm 
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This came from other forum about the weight of the FX mast:

Quote:
One of the FX One owners at Datchet has tried a Stealth carbon mast on his boat with great success, seems to counter a lot of the problems such as single handers not being able to right the boat and in his opinion seems that it also makes the boat easier to sail. On changing over the masts we measured them against each other with both being almost equal length but the diamonds and spinnaker hoist position being over 400mm higher on the FX one. Weight was the telling stat, over 20 kilos against 13 but more tellingly the FX1 was nearly 10kgs at the tip against 5.5 for the Stealth. Now our scales were only bathroom scales so you could plus or minus that 1/2 kilo probably.


That is 44 lbs vs 28 lbs, FX to Stealth carbon mast. 20 lbs vs 10 lbs at the mast tip -- although I don't know how you'd go about weighing the mast tip.

Based on several comments -- including some other things you have said -- it looks like the FX almost ought to have no mast rake simply because of the bigness -- the size and weight -- of the mast itself. In other words, balancing the mast on the boat will outweigh (no pun) other considerations...

Do you think this is so?

I wonder if this is a consideration for the Fox and other boats with heavier masts?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:42 am 
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My boat came out of the Sandy Hook Catamaran Club. I can't think of the previous owners name though.

I really haven't played with the rake much. I spent basically all of last year trying to get the other stuff dialed in. I found years ago when trying to dial in suspension on sport bikes that you should only change one thing at a time. That way you get a good understanding of what that adjustment has done. If you change too many things at once its hard to discern what has helped, and what has impeded you.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:26 pm 
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Quote:
My boat came out of the Sandy Hook Catamaran Club.


A father and son bought two FX's. Dad busted his knee. Guess where the boats are now?

Quote:
I really haven't played with the rake much.


My point was this. The quote from the other forum may be right -- this mast is a big. Looking at it the other day, I realized how big it is. For the platform I mean.

You think getting the mast balanced right may be first thing to start with?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:23 am 
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JJ, have you been out sailing the boat much?

You could be putting the cart before the horse here. I found that the boat has a sweet spot for tuning that is fairly large. It will sail well till you go beyond that.

If you rake back to far it will slow the boat down to much. And if you have a Hobie main sail:
then you need to have a certain amount of diamond wire tension and spreader rake before the sail will start to look right,
enough batten tension to keep the rinkles out, too much batton tension and you will have too much draft in light air,
also when it is light air, it helps to have a little down haul on, it will help with the leach hooking.

Other than those things just spending time on the boat is the big thing. Once you get the tacks and jibs down fast that is the key.

I spent two seasons chasing the Tigers around in Div 4, and where you fall behind is at the marks. It is tough to do the mark rounding evolution by yourself. Speed that part up and it will far out weigh the tuning issues.

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Mike Hensel
Hobie Tiger
Wind in your sails, water in your shoes, great day!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:32 pm 
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Mike, no. I am putting a used boat together. Since there is a lot of different advice from so many different directions, I am just asking questions and just sorting information.

The only way to verify some things sometimes, IMO, is just to throw out questions. The FX is not a common boat. Plus, it takes a lot of technical know-how and patience to work on this boat and others its size without really screwing something up.

Some advice is on the mark. Some looks screwy. You, in fact, got me over a problem, which I appreciate. I got the right anti-seize Locktite and then had to replace a frozen spreader arm barrel adjuster. Saved me quite a bit of time, future aggravation, and money, I thought. Thanks.

Karl's experience and advice has always been good too.

BTW, when you say you chased Tigers, that means you owned an FX previously, I take it?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:50 pm 
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I just sold it last fall. I had a Tiger and a FX for awhile till I needed the cash to buy new sails for the Tiger.

I usually sailed the FX about middle of the pack when starting with the Tigers. We have about 8-12 Tigers in those regattas.

Ask the guys out here I was a big pain inthe ass if I got under one of the Tigers on the line. Usually I got to the weather mark near the front of the pack and then would drop back getting the spin up.

I did most of two seasons racing the FX with the Tigers.

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Wind in your sails, water in your shoes, great day!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:46 pm 
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One last question...

When rummaging through parts, I notice that I am missing the original bridle rig. Only have the jib setup.

Edit: Going to just replace some shrouds, but...

How come bridle on page 4 of parts catalog does not match this arrangement?:

Image

That is nice and simple.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:53 pm 
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That's the setup that comes with the spinnaker kit. I don't know if the bridles are actually any shorter with the Furler either. If you buy just the boat it used to, (probably still does), come with twin forestays.


Last edited by Karl Brogger on Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:07 pm 
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Thanks, Karl.

Riddles. Spi parts manual doesn't show the bridles but does list the forestay... I wonder if the jib bridles are the same length as the spi bridles?

So, I may just need the forestay for the spi, a stay adjuster and cover, and a 6mm shackle if the bridles are the same.

But there are no wire length guides...!

The shroud adjuster twist toggles need to be replaced also.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:48 pm 
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JJ wrote:
But there are no wire length guides...!


You're semi screwed when it comes to the bridle. The end that attaches to the hull is goofy. APS has an end that looks similar, but I don't have the tools to make wires. Nor do I want them.


If you need a picture of how something is rigged on the boat let me know. My boat is sitting in the basement, so I won't even have to freaze anything off to take the pic.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:31 am 
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Actually, Karl, if that's the worst it gets, that's not bad at all!

About the wire lengths, I was thinking of posting this under Mike's parts topic on the Open Forum, but I think it's better here.

From the topic thread, mmiller said:

Quote:
Jacques will be on this with France and our purchasing guy again Monday.


How about getting above-mentioned Jacques to add the FX and Tiger wire length guides to this? --

http://www.hobiecat.com/support/pdfs/WireGuide.pdf

If you have the time, Karl, could you measure the spi forestay that you use, from tip-to-tip, and the spi bridles from tip-to-tip and post it here? Pre-thanks.

Whenever you get the chance. It would be nice to have a verification. You know. Measure twice, cut once type thing.

I am curious as to what angle the original designers preferred the mast set at with the shrouds/bridles -- vertical on the front crossbar, or back 2 degrees, or whatever. Yeah, yeah, I know about the stay adjusters... Hard to believe that they would stand back and say, "Just set the dam mast straight up, boy. Watdahell."

How would you translate all that into French, Jacques? Qu'est-ce que c'est, homme ?


Last edited by JJ on Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:46 am 
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BTW, I caught Matt's post on downhaul on Open Forum too:

Quote:
A sail is like an airplane wing, but is flexible...

The downhaul (and outhaul) control the shape of the foil that gives it lift, or in the case of a sailboat... forward power.

The position of the deepest part of the draft is critical to highest performance. Without the controls, the sail will still work, but not to the efficiency and power that is possible.

Generally, you pull the downhaul to remove horizontal wrinkles in the sail. The harder you sheet, the more downhaul required to keep the material smooth.

Performance wise, you have to measure the draft and try to place the deepest portion not further aft than around 45% aft of the mast or ahead of mid sail. As the wind comes up the air forces the draft further aft, so more downhaul pulls it forward.

Lots of downhaul can also cause the top of the sail to twist off and de-power. This is a common way to de-power in high winds.

Outhaul is also increased as the wind increases. The outhaul helps to flatten the sail.

Higher wind more of both... lighter wind... less.


Thanks, Matt


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:07 am 
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JJ wrote:
If you have the time, Karl, could you measure the spi forestay that you use, from tip-to-tip, and the spi bridles from tip-to-tip and post it here? Pre-thanks.


I believe the proper way to measure wires is from outside edge of pin, to outside edge of pin.

Bridles - 53-1/4"
Forestay - 239-5/16"


JJ wrote:
Whenever you get the chance. It would be nice to have a verification. You know. Measure twice, cut once type thing.


I hope you're not planning on making your own wires unless you are proficient at it. Its cheaper and easier just to buy them.

JJ wrote:
I am curious as to what angle the original designers preferred the mast set at with the shrouds/bridles -- vertical on the front crossbar, or back 2 degrees, or whatever. Yeah, yeah, I know about the stay adjusters... Hard to believe that they would stand back and say, "Just set the dam mast straight up, boy. Watdahell."


Mast rake isn't so much about the actual balance of the mast, or where the center of gravity is. Its about where the center of effort is. More rake will shift the center of effort back, and also essentially de-powers. I don't run a heck of alot of rake. Most classes develop a standard way of measuring the rake using a trap line, and a fixed position on the front of the hull, and then where that falls on the back is the reference for how much rake you are using.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:43 pm 
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Well, thanks, Karl. Cause short of going to France to get the measurements, you are THE source so far. No, I got absolutely no intention whatsoever at all of making my own wires. Don't want to see the mast come crashing down.

Just needed some dimensions to check against. There is the standard two forestay arrangement (saying "two forestays" might have been clearer terms) and their lengths. The jib arrangment and their lengths (only set I have). And the spi arrangement and their lengths. I would have caught onto all this quicker, but there is no pic of the "bridle/forestay" arrangement on the mast in the basic assembly manual and I kept seeing other configurations in different pics... As a matter of fact, I don't think I have ever seen a pic or drawing of an FX with the two forestay arrangement...


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:23 am 
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I wonder if this method will work for tuning the rig on the FX-one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jPvBp4o ... re=channel

:lol:
J


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