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 Post subject: Hobie 16 mast base
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 9:28 am 
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I heard this weekend, through the grape vine, that Hobie was making a more durable mast base for the Hobie 16. When will this part be available? How much trouble is it to replace the base on the front cross bar?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:29 pm 
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Location: Durham, NC
Grapevine?

Go to www.hobieclass.com, rules forum and you can see all the 14/16 rule changes they are slowly grinding through, a real rotation limiter, a real 2:1 outhaul, a real 4:1 downhaul and more.

The sad part is that the Dragoon originally came with that sorry 14/16 mast base/step and they quickly changed it to the 17/FX-1/Tiger ball step among many other improvements.

I have never understood why Hobie insists on keeping the American boats so antiquated while they quickly upgrade and improve the Euro boats.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:39 pm 
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Location: 315 N. Hwy 79 Panama City Beach, FL 32413 850-235-2281
samevans wrote:
Grapevine?
I have never understood why Hobie insists on keeping the American boats so antiquated while they quickly upgrade and improve the Euro boats.



Hobie is preserving one of the Best racing classes in the world, H16, by not changing with technology. You can take an old H16 and be competitive with a new boat. You can but a 20 year old H16 and still purchase parts for it. This is why they haven't made the changes. I have heard nothing of a mast base change. There was a change to accomidate the mast rake everyeone is running but I'm not sure which year that took place.

Thanks,
Brad Stephens
Authorized Hobie/Vanguard Dealer
www.sunjammers.com
info@sunjammers.com
850-235-2281
Panama City Beach, FL


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:52 pm 
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Location: Durham, NC
Brad,
Reread my post. I DID NOT say they were changing the Hobie 16 mast base.
I said they were changing the Hobie Dragoon mast base from the crappy 14/16 type to the modern 17/20/FX-1/Tiger type.
If you would go to the IHCA website, like I suggested, you would see that at <www.hobieclass.com/rulesforum/rules/14rot.jpg>, there are pictures of the NEW mast rotation limiter and 4:1 downhaul and at <www.hobieclass.com/rulesforum/rules/base&ot.jpg > there are pictures of the NEW H14 mast base and boom modifications.
It is also sadly ironic that Hobie is making these UPGRADES available for a boat that it no longer produces and sells in the U.S., a "deadboat", but is still built and sold in Europe.

None of these changes, if allowed on the 16, are going to break the budget of the racers. The hardcore racers buy new $1,200 sails every couple of years anyway.

How can a 20 year old Hobie 16 be competative with a new boat without major ugrades? Assuming the hull decks aren't soft AND it doesn't weigh 80lbs more because of the water it has absorbed. It would need a comp tip, new sails, new 6:1 mainsheet, Aussie jib halyard, adjustable jib sheet blocks, new rudders, new rudder castings, etc.
How much would you charge a customer for all of that?

This absurd myth that improvements are going to kill the Hobie 16 Class needs to die.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:27 pm 
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Location: 315 N. Hwy 79 Panama City Beach, FL 32413 850-235-2281
I never said a 20 year old boat would be competitive with a new boat, I said you can still buy parts for it. An old H16 could be a 1995 boat, 9 years old in boat years, and still be competitive with new 2004 boats. The original question in the post was about a rumor about Hobie making a more durable mast base, I have heard no talk of this. Matt Miller would be the best person to confirm this. Everyone thinks you must have the newest boat to be competitive in racing, We had a 1994 H20 that was staying in the back of the pack, everyone assumed it was the boat being older. Bob Curry hoped on the boat and already had his sails down when we hit the beach, in most cases the sailor can make up the difference!

Thanks,
Brad Stephens
Authorized Hobie/Vanguard Dealer
www.sunjammers.com
info@sunjammers.com
850-235-2281
Panama City Beach, FL


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 Post subject: UPGRADES?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:36 pm 
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Location: Oceanside, California
Here are my comments. This goes for the Hobie 14 and 16 proposed changes:

The best thing about the 14 and 16 has been that they are "simple boats". Most of the proposed changes defeat this. I have personally owned 5 Hobie 16's and raced them for many years along with the 14 as well. I have also worked as a dealer before working for the factory in the USA. I have seen these kinds of changes from several perspectives and witnessed the negative response to some. From my experience, these kinds of things are not necessarily good for the class. In my opinion, there is no point in making continuous changes to the older classes that fragment them more and more. There is a thought process that says "making changes might invigorate a class", but honestly, I think it just alienates most of the class in the lower ranks. They just want to sail the boat as is. New stuff is a cost and a learning curve.

I can agree with the rotation control and perhaps the downhaul, but not the mast step ball and outhaul changes. That would be a big pain in the ass to retrofit and I don't see the need. Trying to make this mast base "upgrade" on an older 14 or 16 would cause some real headaches for the boat owners. This is not simple and would be relatively expensive. There are some real problems with a freely rotating mast if the rotation control is not properly used. Over rotation can cause batten breakage, shroud wire and mast failures. I prefer the idea of cutting the existing stops back (IF they want to) and leaving a safety "maximum" stop if someone wants to add the rotation control arm. That is simple and achieves the most important thing... rotation limit control.

It seems this is mostly being driven by Hobie Cat France. Hobie USA has not made a proposal for a major change... we don't see a need for it. The 16 sailors that I have spoken to are acting like a bunch of deer in headlights. They are somewhat confused by the process. They see this as being somehow forced on them regardless of their opinions as though we HAVE to do these things. The active 16 racers I have spoken with all agree that the rotation control is the main tem of interest. The downhaul purchase idea is acceptable and the 16 jib halyard system (not shown in this Hobie 14 based email) would require a secure cleat to back up any jaw cleat.

So, my proposal:

Leave the step system alone and allow the addition of a rotater bar. The stops can be cut back a little, but a maximum rotation angle should be determined for safety.
Allow the downhaul adjustment system.
Allow the addition of a cam cleat in the jib halyard system, but require it in-line with the existing horn cleat for safety.

The rest of the proposals (outhaul, base/ball step system) are just not needed and are difficult and likely expensive upgrades for all existing boats.

US sailors need to make their opinions known to the IHCA rules committee. Look at the proposed changes at http://www.hobieclass.com /Rules Forum and then Email them at rules@hobieclass.com with your comments.

<<samevans wrote:
Grapevine?
I have never understood why Hobie insists on keeping the American boats so antiquated while they quickly upgrade and improve the Euro boats. >>

Hobie USA adhears to the Hobie Class rules and allows the sailors to decide what changes should be made. The basic concept of a "One Design" class is lost when manufacturers constantly make changes to the design. This concept prohibits us from just making any old change we want to make just to sell a few more boats. This has been a problem in Europe whether driven by the sailors there or not.

_________________
Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


Last edited by mmiller on Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hobie 16 mast base
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:44 pm
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Location: Oceanside, California
Jim Glanden wrote:
I heard this weekend, through the grape vine, that Hobie was making a more durable mast base for the Hobie 16. When will this part be available? How much trouble is it to replace the base on the front cross bar?


To answer the original question...

There is a new mast step casting available soon. This is in the system now. This only has some slight changes, some of which were already on the euro boats. These changes are not related to rules issues. The stops are slightly higher and are wider (more aluminum surface, further forward). We also shaved the back end down slightly as some masts were rubbing there when fully raked. We also added a little "Chip Keeper" trick that Dan Ketterman had on his 16 for years. This is a series of indent (holes) around the cup. 6 little holes that the chip will squish into to lock it into place when compressed by the mast while sailing. This seems to lock the chip in place while trailering as well. We will have some information about how to do it to your boat in the next NAHCA News.

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Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject: NAHCA rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 5:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 2:54 pm
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Location: Durham, NC
"cause batten breakage, shroud wire and mast failures."
What's with the drama?
Why don't these DANGERS apply to the 17, 18, 20, 21, FX-1, Tiger and Fox? Instead, we have to put positive rotation on our boats to force the mast to rotate.

"a bunch of deer in headlights."
Well, what do you expect?
The procedure for proposing and changing NAHCA rules is not documented anywhere.
Proposals pop-up from somebody, somewhere and are approved or disapproved by HOBIE CORP and thenget voted on by somebody, somewhere, sometime.
All we hear is "Go to the IHCA website and read the proposals and send an email to somebody."
Nice and secret.

You have a place right here where YOU could set-up a rules forum where members could discuss proposed rule changes OUT IN THE OPEN.
If you really wanted our opinions you would do it.


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 Post subject: Rule change input
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:30 am 
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Sam,

"Hobie Cat", as the manufacturer, is actually two completely separate companies. Hobie Cat USA (that is us) and Hobie Cat Europe (France). Most all proposed changes have been coming from Europe. Either from their association or from Hobie Cat Europe itself.

Hobie Cat companies do not make rule changes. We do have representation on the rules committee. The point of my last post: it is the job of sailors to keep themselves informed. This is a process governed by the Hobie Class associations. If you want to comment to someone, make comments to the IHCA and NAHCA. Stay informed, be a member of the NAHCA and even the IHCA. There is a NAHCA newsletter and an IHCA newsletter that helps to keep sailors informed. Plus they both have websites with all kinds of information available. No secrets there. www.nahca.org and www.hobieclass.com

You are welcome to post rules type discussions in the racing portion of our forums at any time, but official comments should always be directed at the IHCA or NAHCA through their channels if you want to have direct impact on the process.

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Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject: nahca news
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:57 pm 
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Location: Thunder Bay,On
speaking of keeping informed when is the next nahca news coming out .the last one I recieved was feb/mar


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 Post subject: NAHCA News?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:34 pm 
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The newsletter is available online in a pdf format.

http://www.hobiecat.com/hobieclass

It also was mailed by the printer on the 25th of August.

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Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Hobie Cat USA


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 Post subject: Re: Hobie 16 mast base
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:18 pm 
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I just bought a Hobie Cat tonight, and it needs a new mast, when I typed that in to google it brought me here. If you guys have any ideas on where one would be, hopefully around here in NC. Thanks! GW


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 Post subject: Re: Hobie 16 mast base
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:39 am 
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Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
gwhilden wrote:
I just bought a Hobie Cat tonight, and it needs a new mast, when I typed that in to google it brought me here. If you guys have any ideas on where one would be, hopefully around here in NC. Thanks! GW



Make a post in the For Sale/Looking to Buy section...

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 Post subject: Re: Hobie 16 mast base
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:23 pm 
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Posts: 454
Location: Columbus, Indiana
I have an extra used Hobie 16 mast hanging on my fence,pretty straight,but the base needs replacing...come and get it...Bill 404 .I also have a very nice 16 I would sale if interested?Location: Columbus ,Indiana

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