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 Post subject: Adjusting rudders
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:54 pm 
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Hey guys - quick question about my H16 for you from a relative n00b...

I've seen it said in a number of places that for optimum performance, you should make sure your rudders are properly aligned. That said, I've never actually seen anything along the lines of "how to adjust your rudders." Mine have what I can only describe as "toe-in." That is, looking aft they appear to stick out from the center. (See attached crude picture.)What can I do about this? I don't see any obvious points of adjustment.

Image

Thanks in advance!

Jim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 2:05 pm 
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Location: 315 N. Hwy 79 Panama City Beach, FL 32413 850-235-2281
Your tiler cross bar has an adjustment to change the angle with. Depending on the style you have, older boats have both ends adjustable, there is a 1/2" bolt the you can loosen to slide the end caps in and out, later models have only one end. The new style is awesome for fine tuning, on end twist to make this adjustment. I run about 1/8" toe in, the trailing two edges closer than the leading edges. Let me know if you have any more questions!

Thanks,
Brad Stephens
www.sunjammers.com <<<new site just launched!
Hobie Division 15 Chairman
Authorized Hobie/Vanguard/Hunter Dealer
brad@sunjammers.com
850-235-2281
Panama City Beach, FL


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2004 3:29 pm 
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sunjammers wrote:
Your tiler cross bar has an adjustment to change the angle with. Depending on the style you have, older boats have both ends adjustable, there is a 1/2" bolt the you can loosen to slide the end caps in and out, later models have only one end. The new style is awesome for fine tuning, on end twist to make this adjustment. I run about 1/8" toe in, the trailing two edges closer than the leading edges. Let me know if you have any more questions!


Hey Brad, I looked at my boat and I don't see the adjustment you're talking about. Maybe my boat is too old?

This is one side of the crossbar. Both sides are identical.
Image


As you can see in this picture below, the left rudder is almost perfectly straight, while the right rudder has significant "toe out." Note I'm standing as close to the center of the boat as possible while taking this picture:
Image


The "toe in" is significant, as while cruising along you could see water splashing up and being diverted to the side by the rudders rather than going smoothly past. I'll bet this is costing me at least 1-3 knots. Very open to suggestions!

Thanks,

Jim
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 11:58 am 
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Location: Clinton, Mississippi
Brad: 1) I think you meant the trailing edges should be (about 1/8") farther apart than the leading edges for toe-in. 2) You goin' to Slip To Ship? If so, I'll see you there!

Jim: 1) You have the older (est?) crossbar end caps that aren't adjustable. Adjustable end caps are available, but will take some effort to install. You might look on eBay or somewhere for a crossbar that already has them. To measure, first lock the rudders down then check distance between leading and trailing edges at the widest fore/aft part of the rudder. There's a pretty good article here: http://www.catsail.com/archives/v3-i2/feature3.htm. 2) Don't worry about how the rudders look when they're up...they all look funny! Also, even if your rudder alignment is set perfectly, the flow around the rudder isn't perfectly smooth. Unless the alignment is way off, you may not notice much difference. 3) Where do you live/sail? I'm in Clinton and our club is on Ross Barnett Rez.

Jerome
Clinton, Mississippi


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 12:00 pm 
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Location: Clinton, Mississippi
Brad: 1) I think you meant the trailing edges should be (about 1/8") farther apart than the leading edges for toe-in. 2) You goin' to Slip To Ship? If so, I'll see you there!

Jim: 1) You have the older (est?) crossbar end caps that aren't adjustable. Adjustable end caps are available, but will take some effort to install. You might look on eBay or somewhere for a crossbar that already has them. To measure, first lock the rudders down then check distance between leading and trailing edges at the widest fore/aft part of the rudder. There's a pretty good article here: http://www.catsail.com/archives/v3-i2/feature3.htm. 2) Don't worry about how the rudders look when they're up...they all look funny! Also, even if your rudder alignment is set perfectly, the flow around the rudder isn't perfectly smooth. Unless the alignment is way off, you may not notice much difference. 3) Where do you live/sail? I'm in Clinton and our club is on Ross Barnett Rez.

Jerome
Clinton, Mississippi


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 3:46 pm 
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rattle 'n hum wrote:
Jim: 1) You have the older (est?) crossbar end caps that aren't adjustable. Adjustable end caps are available, but will take some effort to install. You might look on eBay or somewhere for a crossbar that already has them.

Okay, I'll search for that. I saw in the Hobie catalog that a new adjustable crossbar was like, $105 or something and I'm not keen to spend that much money. 8/


Quote:
To measure, first lock the rudders down then check distance between leading and trailing edges at the widest fore/aft part of the rudder. There's a pretty good article here: http://www.catsail.com/archives/v3-i2/feature3.htm.

Edit: Measured at the widest point on the rudder:
Leading edge to leading edge: 83 1/16"
Trailing edge to trailing edge: 86 1/8".
So my previous assertion that I think the centerbar needs to be about 3" longer was fairly accurate, I guess? I don't get how my dad sailed this boat for years and never noticed. ???
/edit

Quote:
2) Don't worry about how the rudders look when they're up...they all look funny! Also, even if your rudder alignment is set perfectly, the flow around the rudder isn't perfectly smooth. Unless the alignment is way off, you may not notice much difference.

I hear ya, but you'll just have to trust me when I say it really looked like it was diverting water the wrong way around. Definately was adding more drag than necessary.

Quote:
3) Where do you live/sail? I'm in Clinton and our club is on Ross Barnett Rez.

I live on Columbus AFB so I've mainly been on Columbus lake, which sucks. Unless you're where the river used to go, it's really shallow and there are random trees & stuff. I went over to Grenada a few weeks ago when the wind was forecast to be 10-15kts and it was absolutely still. Beautiful skiing weather, but I don't have a ski boat so I was out of luck. lol

I've thought about going to Ross Barnett a few times. I'm moving to TX at the end of July, so maybe we should meet up prior to then! :D

Thanks again,

Jim
_______________________
Hull #3403
Sail #3404


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 11:10 am 
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Jim: I was sitting here thinking that's the worst alignment I've ever heard of and getting ready to apologize for doubting you on the symptoms you've noticed. Then I thought about how much time and/or money it was going to take to fix your problem. All of a sudden, the simple solution struck me....your whole steering assembly has been put on backwards! (There is a right and wrong way....it's the Ackerman steering thing...a whole 'nother story!) You probably removed the steering assembly recently and then inadvertently put it on backwards. We've all done it at least once...I know I have and the boat was a total dog. Once I figured it out, I put a piece of electrical tape on the crossbar near the starboard end as a reminder never to do it again. I've seen other folks use green tape on the starboard side and red on port. Anyway, all you have to do is remove the rudder pins, flop the whole rudder assembly that's now attached to the starboard transom over to the port side (and vice-versa), then reinstall the rudder pins. I'm betting this will produce a significant improvement in your toe-in measurements and the boat's performance. If not let us know and we'll go from there.

Man, you really are in the middle of catamaran sailing nowhere! I know it's late notice, but this weekend a bunch of us are going to Ocean Springs for Slip To Ship, one of the biggest catamaran happenings in the southeast. We have one club member from Starkville that's going. If you can't make that, you may want to head over to Arkabutla the weekend of June 6 for Broken Mast. Let me know if you're ever coming to Jackson, and you may want to check out the cat scene at Lake Logan Martin near Birmingham. If you need details on any of these places, shoot me a line off-list at jv1234 <at> yahoo <dot> com.

Jerome


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 2:12 pm 
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rattle 'n hum wrote:
Jim: I was sitting here thinking that's the worst alignment I've ever heard of and getting ready to apologize for doubting you on the symptoms you've noticed. Then I thought about how much time and/or money it was going to take to fix your problem. All of a sudden, the simple solution struck me....your whole steering assembly has been put on backwards!

Well, I'm at work right now so I only have the picture above to go off of, but YES YES I SEE. HMMMMm... After staring at the picture I feel stupid for not noticing that myself. I'll definately give it a try very soon! (I keep my boat at my friend's house, so next time I go over there.) Thank you!


Quote:
Man, you really are in the middle of catamaran sailing nowhere!
No kidding.

Quote:
I know it's late notice, but this weekend a bunch of us are going to Ocean Springs for Slip To Ship, one of the biggest catamaran happenings in the southeast. We have one club member from Starkville that's going. If you can't make that, you may want to head over to Arkabutla the weekend of June 6 for Broken Mast.

Well, we were looking to take my friend's Spirit 6.5 to Gulfport NEXT weekend... hmmm.... hmmm... Also, why would you drive all the way to Arkabutla when Sardis is closer? Farther for a smaller lake? I don't get it. But then I don't get all this muddy green water, either. I'm originally from MN. lol

Quote:
Let me know if you're ever coming to Jackson, and you may want to check out the cat scene at Lake Logan Martin near Birmingham. If you need details on any of these places, shoot me a line off-list at jv1234 <at> yahoo <dot> com.
Thanks, broly! I'll definately be in touch!

Warm regards,

Jim


Edit: P.S. - I tried emailing you but it bounced. You wanna mail me? JaimeZX (at) aol (d0t) com. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 10:32 am 
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Location: Clinton, Mississippi
After realizing what (I think) your problem is, I could see it in your picture, although it isn't very obvious w/o being able to see all of the starboard rudder. I mentioned Arkabutla for June 5 & 6 because the Memphis Hobie fleet is holding it's 29th annual Broken Mast Regatta there at Delta Sailing Assn. (the Hobie fleet's home) on Hernando Point (link below). Lots of good folks, fun, food, and racing, even if your new at it. It would be fun even if you didn't race, and you could get answers to every question you've ever had about your boat or catsailing in general. Plus....you haven't seen muddy water 'til you've seen Arkabutla!

http://www.fleet134.com/2004BMR_Flier.htm


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 3:51 pm 
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I've tried mailing you twice now at jv1234 (at) yahoo (d0t) com but it keeps bouncing. (Yes I replaced with @ & . ) Anyway... can you try mailing (or AIMing or ICQing or MSNing) me? Thanks broly!

Jim

Edit: OK I found your _99 email address and tried that. If you check this prior to your email... check your mail. :)
--------------------------------------------------------

In other news... I swapped the hardware to the opposite hulls and now front and back are both 84½"! What an outstanding observation you made Jerome; thanks very much!!

P.S. Check your mail. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 10:31 am 
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Location: Clinton, Mississippi
Sorry about the address problem. Glad you were able to figure it out and even more glad to hear that the rudder fix worked. Now don't forget to mark that crossbar, so you'll be reminded to never reverse the assembly again! This error is in the same category as setting sail without the hull drain plugs in.......there are those of us who've done it already, and the rest of us WILL!

Jerome


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