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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:11 pm 
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I'm spoiled, I admit. But I am used to seeing a complete scale drawing of a boat with dimensions along with some information about the sails (usually luff, leach, foot and sometimes midgirth for spins). Granted, I can go raise the mast and measure these things directly (if it's not too windy and cold, anyway). Those sorts of things turn out to be very handy...for example, today I want to know what the distance is from the tang to the forward crossbeam. Closest I can get with the mast down and measuring in pieces is "about" 18 feet. Other "nice to know" things is how much camber is built into each sail and where max camber is "placed" in the sail. Like I said, I'm spoiled. Does anyone have such drawings and information and can you make it available? TIA

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:57 pm 
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tpdavis473 wrote:
I'm spoiled, I admit. But I am used to seeing a complete scale drawing of a boat with dimensions along with some information about the sails (usually luff, leach, foot and sometimes midgirth for spins). Granted, I can go raise the mast and measure these things directly (if it's not too windy and cold, anyway). Those sorts of things turn out to be very handy...for example, today I want to know what the distance is from the tang to the forward crossbeam. Closest I can get with the mast down and measuring in pieces is "about" 18 feet. Other "nice to know" things is how much camber is built into each sail and where max camber is "placed" in the sail. Like I said, I'm spoiled. Does anyone have such drawings and information and can you make it available? TIA


This is the beauty of having a One Design boat. All the sails come from Hobie so none of it matters. You cannot change anything and still have a Hobie. Professional riggers and sailmakers don't use published measurements unless they are part of a class rule. We measure the boat and create from there.

The distance from the tang to the crossbeam? Like a headstay length on a mono? That distance is not a fixed rig dimension even if it were published. It depends on crew weight and wind speed rake setting and it depends on mainsheet tension.

Google Hobie Class rules any critical dimensions will be there.

Cheers,
Randy

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:28 pm 
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Quote:
This is the beauty of having a One Design boat. All the sails come from Hobie so none of it matters. You cannot change anything and still have a Hobie. Professional riggers and sailmakers don't use published measurements unless they are part of a class rule. We measure the boat and create from there.


Randy, That's not helpful. If you can't be helpful, don't bother to post anything. One Design sucks if you like to tinker and make things "funner"--I didn't buy this boat (or any of my last boats) to race one design. Who races a tupperware boat? How can you race one design in a tupperware boat when there aren't any around? Get off your Hobie horse and join the reality most of the rest of us live in.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:16 pm 
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tpdavis473 wrote:
This is the beauty of having a One Design boat. All the sails come from Hobie so none of it matters. You cannot change anything and still have a Hobie. Professional riggers and sailmakers don't use published measurements unless they are part of a class rule. We measure the boat and create from there.

Quote:
Randy, That's not helpful. If you can't be helpful, don't bother to post anything. One Design sucks if you like to tinker and make things "funner"--I didn't buy this boat (or any of my last boats) to race one design. Who races a tupperware boat? How can you race one design in a tupperware boat when there aren't any around? Get off your Hobie horse and join the reality most of the rest of us live in.


If you want to tinker you will take your own measurements anyway ... why get snotty?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:01 pm 
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RHoughVYC wrote:
tpdavis473 wrote:
This is the beauty of having a One Design boat. All the sails come from Hobie so none of it matters. You cannot change anything and still have a Hobie. Professional riggers and sailmakers don't use published measurements unless they are part of a class rule. We measure the boat and create from there.


Quote:
Randy, That's not helpful. If you can't be helpful, don't bother to post anything. One Design sucks if you like to tinker and make things "funner"--I didn't buy this boat (or any of my last boats) to race one design. Who races a tupperware boat? How can you race one design in a tupperware boat when there aren't any around? Get off your Hobie horse and join the reality most of the rest of us live in.


Quote:
If you want to tinker you will take your own measurements anyway ... why get snotty?


ATQ...Actually, in the Navy Nuclear Program it is ATFQ. When you avoid answering the question (ATQ) and answer what you want to hear yourself say, you are being a politician. I'm being snotty because I ACTUALLY wanted some information, not someone making noise. Seriously, if you have no expertise, refrain from making noise.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:22 pm 
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tpdavis473... chill.

Hobie Cat does not publish design measurements of it's products.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:15 pm 
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Hey Thom - Navy nuke? Still active or out?
I'm an ex-nuke (EM1 on the Enterprise. Got out in 1981. Yeah, that long ago.)
And, yeah, way off topic.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:49 pm 
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dorienc wrote:
Hey Thom - Navy nuke? Still active or out?
I'm an ex-nuke (EM1 on the Enterprise. Got out in 1981. Yeah, that long ago.)
And, yeah, way off topic.


Got out myself in 1980. USS John Marshall (SSBN 611 Blue). I was Division Officer for A, IC, E divisions (all at the same time-got LOTS fewer people on a submarine than on the Enterprise). Didja know a Junior Officer named William Ware-he should have been a contemporary of yours on the Big E in that time frame. S'OK to be way off topic since this forum seems to be less helpful than most in my sailing experience. I may have to create a competing blog since this one is so poor. I guess if my bread and butter depended on folks buying stuff from my company instead of getting better stuff for less, I'd be protecting any helpful information as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:18 pm 
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Tpdavis473:
Think about it hobiecat already designed the getaway sail package based on the hull design so I'm guessing anything you design on your own will at best only be marginally better by following the same basic sail type and design. You might be able to get another few percent increase in performance but ultimate performance is dictated by the hull/mast layout. Why try to reinvent the wheel.
If your not trying to follow the stuffy one class rules and want to increase performance by a large factor while still using the same basic hull/mast combination and your willing and able to design and build your own sails (it sounds like this is your intent). Instead of designing all the same old stuff like everyone else on the planet over and over again I suggest you look into designing something that will give you at least 25% to 50% better sailing performance. By designing around a wing sail design you get much better performance from the same sail area, in addition wings only have 1/4 to 1/2 of the heeling moment of conventional sails (that's the force trying to tip you over). Now I'm not talking about the giant rigid jointed wings like on the AC72's. I'm talking about double walled soft sails with air inlets on the leading edge that fill the sail with air making them as rigid as a hard sail (like a para foil). Your material costs are only slightly higher (double the fabric, I would guess your material cost will be around $600 for the main and $200 for the wing jib). There are plenty of simple designs out there that you can follow (better yet design your own, they are not complex), since your making it for yourself and only for your own use you are free to design build and do anything you desire to do (you can't get sued for stuff for your own personal use). If at the same time you design a wing jib that feeds the main on upwind I see no reason you couldn't get 2.5 times wind speed almost directly upwind. I'm assuming here you have a sewing machine, layout tables, cad and some sail making experience. I have to admit I had the time of my life designing, building, then testing out all my stuff, but you have to think outside of your comfort zone as everything works on completely different theory from conventional sail design, but the reward is huge.
Even though wing sail designs are superior don't expect the sailing industry to accept them anytime in the near future, as they have to feed their one design cash cow as long as they can milk it (IMO).
I don't expect you to actually do this, but it's something to think about (if I had a getaway that's exactly what I would be doing).
Good luck on whatever you decide to do.
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:06 pm 
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fusioneng wrote:
Tpdavis473:
Think about it hobiecat already designed the getaway sail package based on the hull design so I'm guessing anything you design on your own will at best only be marginally better by following the same basic sail type and design. You might be able to get another few percent increase in performance but ultimate performance is dictated by the hull/mast layout. Why try to reinvent the wheel.
If your not trying to follow the stuffy one class rules and want to increase performance by a large factor while still using the same basic hull/mast combination and your willing and able to design and build your own sails (it sounds like this is your intent). Instead of designing all the same old stuff like everyone else on the planet over and over again I suggest you look into designing something that will give you at least 25% to 50% better sailing performance. By designing around a wing sail design you get much better performance from the same sail area, in addition wings only have 1/4 to 1/2 of the heeling moment of conventional sails (that's the force trying to tip you over). Now I'm not talking about the giant rigid jointed wings like on the AC72's. I'm talking about double walled soft sails with air inlets on the leading edge that fill the sail with air making them as rigid as a hard sail (like a para foil). Your material costs are only slightly higher (double the fabric, I would guess your material cost will be around $600 for the main and $200 for the wing jib). There are plenty of simple designs out there that you can follow (better yet design your own, they are not complex), since your making it for yourself and only for your own use you are free to design build and do anything you desire to do (you can't get sued for stuff for your own personal use). If at the same time you design a wing jib that feeds the main on upwind I see no reason you couldn't get 2.5 times wind speed almost directly upwind. I'm assuming here you have a sewing machine, layout tables, cad and some sail making experience. I have to admit I had the time of my life designing, building, then testing out all my stuff, but you have to think outside of your comfort zone as everything works on completely different theory from conventional sail design, but the reward is huge.
Even though wing sail designs are superior don't expect the sailing industry to accept them anytime in the near future, as they have to feed their one design cash cow as long as they can milk it (IMO).
I don't expect you to actually do this, but it's something to think about (if I had a getaway that's exactly what I would be doing).
Good luck on whatever you decide to do.
Bob


Thanks for the post, Bob. I'm not that interested in better performance. I'm interested in more fun which, for me, means something easily manageable single-handed in 20-25 kts of wind which is typical of my summers here. Most production boats and sail designs for one-design put too much camber placed too far aft for winds in the 20-25 kt range (which is why a lot of you end up with mainsheets two blocked, jibs board tight and travelers down when you see whitecaps on the water). The Getaway has only an 8 ft beam which will make it "tippy" pretty easily in the winds I see-especially sailing single handed with that 25 ft mast. I bought it anyway figuring I'd put in a reef point or get rid of the roach on the mainsail or both. I also know it won't point worth a darn since there aren't any boards...but again, I bought it anyway and will decide what to do (if anything) after I see just how horrible it is (maybe a leeboard?). Won't know how horrible it is until I get among some other boats going to weather with me which hasn't happened yet (it's winter here). I do want to improve downwind performance with a spinnaker, but it doesn't have to be very large for the winds I see and I prefer to go low since I sail in a strait with an average of 2 kt current (one way or the other) year round-so I can have a beer while driving back without gybing every 3 minutes. If all else fails, though, I figure this would be a great platform for a kite sail and leave the mast home. Granted, kite sailing platforms usually have to be purpose built for the guys who push them to the limits, but again, I'm interested in fun and no longer push myself or my machinery to do stupid stuff. Since going upwind is the most difficult thing to do with a kiteboat, I'd probably get a decent sized motor and kite sail downwind only. Again, Just Doing This for FUN.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:59 am 
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You have no idea how lucky you are having those kind of typical winds, on the gulf coast we have the opposite problem 10 months out of the year (typical very light winds). Most of our sailing here is either upwind or down wind thru the summer since the inter-coastal is so narrow. Around here I don't see too many getaways out in winds over 15 mph (probably their sweet spot). I suspect running with a reefed main your upwind pointing ability will suck. Most getaways I've seen have tiny jibs. You might have the best luck designing a furl able soft wing type jib a little larger (maybe on a bow sprit so it can create some additional lift). I have a similar setup and the large jib is easy to manage single handed, points well upwind, and has improved downwind performance as a batwing setup without having to break out the big spinnaker which I hardly use anymore.
Just throwing some outside of the box ideas out for you to think about.
Good luck
Bob

EDIT:
Here is an example and explanation of what I was thinking, by kicking the base of the jib way forward on a bow sprit, this will help keep your CG low and help create lift to the bow. Of course it doesn't have to be a wing design, but I was thinking a wing jib creates much less side force, and since the getaway has no daggerboards just adding a larger standard jib probably wouldn't work out so well. All this is assuming you plan to make a shorter (reefed main).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AhpTmP ... e=youtu.be


Yea it's a little outside of most peoples comfort zone.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:22 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
You have no idea how lucky you are having those kind of typical winds, on the gulf coast we have the opposite problem 10 months out of the year (typical very light winds). Most of our sailing here is either upwind or down wind thru the summer since the inter-coastal is so narrow. Around here I don't see too many getaways out in winds over 15 mph (probably their sweet spot). I suspect running with a reefed main your upwind pointing ability will suck. Most getaways I've seen have tiny jibs. You might have the best luck designing a furl able soft wing type jib a little larger (maybe on a bow sprit so it can create some additional lift). I have a similar setup and the large jib is easy to manage single handed, points well upwind, and has improved downwind performance as a batwing setup without having to break out the big spinnaker which I hardly use anymore.


Yea it's a little outside of most peoples comfort zone.


Thanks for the thoughts. Adding a bigger jib probably isn't a good idea unless I also add the leeboards-simply because the extra sail area forward will create even more lee helm causing more rudder to be used...might even be slower that way. That was an interesting video, though. The adventure island with a jib probably also suffers from lee helm with that deployed. I made a jib for my Triak (very similar boat to an Adventure Island, but fiberglass construction and carries a spinnaker). By tacking it back further and shortening it to a fractional rig it is helpful in winds up to about 10 kts-I had to make it from light material so it would snuff though. With the Triak I had to redesign the mainsail for the winds around here...it is a very tippy boat. Ended up with pin top and only about 9 % camber. Can you tell me why the cell structured sails would work better than those without the cells? It was my understanding that the cells are only there to provide internal structure on kites since they have no spars typically. My power kites only inflate, for example, no wind goes through the cells and all the power comes from the camber.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:12 pm 
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tpdavis473 wrote:
S'OK to be way off topic since this forum seems to be less helpful than most in my sailing experience. I may have to create a competing blog since this one is so poor. I guess if my bread and butter depended on folks buying stuff from my company instead of getting better stuff for less, I'd be protecting any helpful information as well.


I'm not in agreement with your view of these forums as being "unhelpful". We have a very involved group of enthusiasts here as well as factory participation (over 9,200 posts just from myself)... this is not seen in most company forums (per user feedback again and again).

You are correct, we (as the company Hobie Cat) are not here specifically to support DIY project people. We support our products as we build them for their intended use. Many users do share their thoughts on DIY here. In that regard, kindness is always better than the latter when asking forum users for something. Just a suggestion.

I do think it is more than reasonable for us to protect proprietary information and plans for building OUR products. That is simple business logic.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:25 pm 
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mmiller wrote:

I do think it is more than reasonable for us to protect proprietary information and plans for building OUR products. That is simple business logic.


I understand why you would feel that way. But there is proprietary information (such as the rotomolding process and the specific plastics used to make the hulls) and there are physical dimensions that anyone who owns one (or has access to one) can glean from simple measurement. In a court, for example, they would agree with me that your processes would be proprietary, but the scale drawing of the boat that I originally asked for would not be considered proprietary because the information is "out there". The camber amount and placement "might" be considered proprietary, though (even though any sailmaker could reverse engineer them (myself included). You may wish to disagree and we probably will never find out for sure since I was asking for information and no one seems to have it, so I will reverse engineer all of it by myself--won't take me long. I continue to believe that this forum is less than helpful compared to others with which I am familiar. Owners (such as Ian Farrier) participated as well in those forums, but he was forthcoming with construction details and other suggestions to make ownership a pleasant experience. You should note, also, that Corsair, Triak and Farrier all were interested in improvement suggestions related to their products as well as their documentation--something you resisted mightily with the Getaway III mast raising system. Just sayin'....successful companies and individuals tend to have one thing in common, a desire to improve.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:31 pm 
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Same logic applies to the stepper issues you raised. Just saying... It's how it comes across. We are all here to help if we can and I did in fact improve the instructions per your perception of them being unclear.

Corsair is kinda a DIY boat, so I understand the difference there.

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