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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:12 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdedS1z ... T5C0YL6uRg

It takes a weekend and is sorta fun as a hobby. I probably won't get a chance to get much video of it flying on my boat until spring. Still too cold and no wind (gusts today were 2 mph!).

Question for you folks that have the asymmetric kite. What size lines do you use for guy, halyard and sheets? Do you use ratchet blocks for sheeting or ?? Do you do 1:1 or 2:1 like the jib? I don't think I'll see the same loads since the one I built is meant to fly deeper, but I thought I'd ask since I haven't purchased the control lines or blocks yet.

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BMW C600
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:42 am 
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tpdavis473 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdedS1z3kzE&list=UUKUwoGV9eRVRwT5C0YL6uRg

It takes a weekend and is sorta fun as a hobby. I probably won't get a chance to get much video of it flying on my boat until spring. Still too cold and no wind (gusts today were 2 mph!).

Question for you folks that have the asymmetric kite. What size lines do you use for guy, halyard and sheets? Do you use ratchet blocks for sheeting or ?? Do you do 1:1 or 2:1 like the jib? I don't think I'll see the same loads since the one I built is meant to fly deeper, but I thought I'd ask since I haven't purchased the control lines or blocks yet.


Halyard/Dowse 6mm
Tack line 8mm
Sheets 10mm
Sheets run through a ratchet block at the shroud then to a turning block on the mast cross beam. This maintains the wrap needed for proper ratchet block operation and keeps the spin sheet clos to the jib sheet so it is always where you expect it to be.

No guys, pole/bowsprit on centerline.

Boat is happy at 135° apparent wind angle using Hobie 16 spinnaker on the centerline bowsprit. My crew/wife reports "If gybing the spinnaker on your other boats was as easy as this I would have been racing with you for the last 10 years. It is as easy as tacking a jib."

Full hoist using the H16 tang height put the luff in tension for tight reaching. Easing the halyard 1-2 feet allows the sail to rotate and be happy at deeper angles. Rule of thumb is bear off whenever you need to hike to keep the boat flat. Ease the sheet until the luff curls then trim just a bit. At about 14 knots the bows start to bury into the waves and the ride is wet and wild with 100% control.

Not trying to start a debate. Just providing real world data on the Hobie 16 spinnaker kit on a Getaway.

Cheers,
Randy

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Sail More. Tinker Less. Enjoy a Hobie Day.
-2013 H16 #1`13780
-2014 Getaway w/wings,spinnaker,& trapeze


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:31 pm 
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Location: Benicia, CA
RHoughVYC wrote:
tpdavis473 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdedS1z3kzE&list=UUKUwoGV9eRVRwT5C0YL6uRg

It takes a weekend and is sorta fun as a hobby. I probably won't get a chance to get much video of it flying on my boat until spring. Still too cold and no wind (gusts today were 2 mph!).

Question for you folks that have the asymmetric kite. What size lines do you use for guy, halyard and sheets? Do you use ratchet blocks for sheeting or ?? Do you do 1:1 or 2:1 like the jib? I don't think I'll see the same loads since the one I built is meant to fly deeper, but I thought I'd ask since I haven't purchased the control lines or blocks yet.


Halyard/Dowse 6mm
Tack line 8mm
Sheets 10mm
Sheets run through a ratchet block at the shroud then to a turning block on the mast cross beam. This maintains the wrap needed for proper ratchet block operation and keeps the spin sheet clos to the jib sheet so it is always where you expect it to be.


Cheers,
Randy


Thanks, Randy. That sounds like a good setup. Are the lines double braid polyester (Yacht braid) or something higher tech?

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R/Thom
Triak
Getaway
BMW C600
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:26 pm 
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tpdavis473 wrote:
RHoughVYC wrote:
tpdavis473 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdedS1z3kzE&list=UUKUwoGV9eRVRwT5C0YL6uRg

It takes a weekend and is sorta fun as a hobby. I probably won't get a chance to get much video of it flying on my boat until spring. Still too cold and no wind (gusts today were 2 mph!).

Question for you folks that have the asymmetric kite. What size lines do you use for guy, halyard and sheets? Do you use ratchet blocks for sheeting or ?? Do you do 1:1 or 2:1 like the jib? I don't think I'll see the same loads since the one I built is meant to fly deeper, but I thought I'd ask since I haven't purchased the control lines or blocks yet.


Halyard/Dowse 6mm
Tack line 8mm
Sheets 10mm
Sheets run through a ratchet block at the shroud then to a turning block on the mast cross beam. This maintains the wrap needed for proper ratchet block operation and keeps the spin sheet clos to the jib sheet so it is always where you expect it to be.


Cheers,
Randy


Thanks, Randy. That sounds like a good setup. Are the lines double braid polyester (Yacht braid) or something higher tech?


I checked the lines today. The Halyard and Tack lines are Spectra with a hard/tight cover ... like Marlow D2 but not a fleck pattern I've seen before. The Sheets are a non-hackle 12 plait single braid. Soft hand and not too slippery when wet.

Hands never touch the tack line so the hard cover is no big deal. The spin halyard is a "better have gloves on" line. Small diameter and hard cover is an abrasive combo. Nice and light and plenty strong ... just a bit hard on the hands.

Randy

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Sail More. Tinker Less. Enjoy a Hobie Day.
-2013 H16 #1`13780
-2014 Getaway w/wings,spinnaker,& trapeze


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:51 pm 
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RHoughVYC wrote:

I checked the lines today. The Halyard and Tack lines are Spectra with a hard/tight cover ... like Marlow D2 but not a fleck pattern I've seen before. The Sheets are a non-hackle 12 plait single braid. Soft hand and not too slippery when wet.

Hands never touch the tack line so the hard cover is no big deal. The spin halyard is a "better have gloves on" line. Small diameter and hard cover is an abrasive combo. Nice and light and plenty strong ... just a bit hard on the hands.

Randy


Thanks. Do you cleat the halyard to the mast cleat or did you install a line clutch?

I'm going out in some light wind this Wed (forecast is up to 10 kts). My plan is to cleat the halyard on one of the mast cleats. I only have some lightweight turning blocks, but in the light breeze I am pretty sure it'll be OK if I don't head up too high. I'm using 1/4" yacht braid all around for starter. We'll see as the year goes on what else I'll need. I'm pretty sure I'll need two more cleats for the guys but I will cleat Wed on the mast (gonna be a couple crowded cleats). Mostly, I am worried about being able to see where I'm going. I might need to sew some windows into my spin. I'll video the trial and post it.

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R/Thom
Triak
Getaway
BMW C600
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:49 am 
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Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
On our H18SX, we use 10 mm Robbline for the spin sheets, superb, can't speak too highly of it.

The other lines are of a 'harder' nature, and yes, we need gloves to operate the spin halyard.
email me off line, I can send you some pictures, if you want.

Minus 24C this morning, and in excess of minus 30C with the wind.

Only 161 days before we sail again

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'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:59 pm 
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tpdavis473 wrote:
RHoughVYC wrote:

I checked the lines today. The Halyard and Tack lines are Spectra with a hard/tight cover ... like Marlow D2 but not a fleck pattern I've seen before. The Sheets are a non-hackle 12 plait single braid. Soft hand and not too slippery when wet.

Hands never touch the tack line so the hard cover is no big deal. The spin halyard is a "better have gloves on" line. Small diameter and hard cover is an abrasive combo. Nice and light and plenty strong ... just a bit hard on the hands.

Randy


Thanks. Do you cleat the halyard to the mast cleat or did you install a line clutch?

I'm going out in some light wind this Wed (forecast is up to 10 kts). My plan is to cleat the halyard on one of the mast cleats. I only have some lightweight turning blocks, but in the light breeze I am pretty sure it'll be OK if I don't head up too high. I'm using 1/4" yacht braid all around for starter. We'll see as the year goes on what else I'll need. I'm pretty sure I'll need two more cleats for the guys but I will cleat Wed on the mast (gonna be a couple crowded cleats). Mostly, I am worried about being able to see where I'm going. I might need to sew some windows into my spin. I'll video the trial and post it.


Halyard cleat is on mast cross beam. Halyard runs forward to tackle for tack line then back to a turning block on the center line of the boat. Halyard tension pulls the the tack line also.

Image

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Sail More. Tinker Less. Enjoy a Hobie Day.
-2013 H16 #1`13780
-2014 Getaway w/wings,spinnaker,& trapeze


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:13 pm 
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Well, it was light breeze on the water...too light. I couldn't make way upwind against a 2 kt current--the wind was 4-8 kts. The boat did sail well, but couldn't point high enough to keep from losing ground. 2 hp motor was barely enough to move boat against that current. I did fly the new spin while the boat was on the trailer after getting back to land. The spin flies fine and there is sufficient visibility under it so I don't have to add windows. Next project is to make a snuffer for it.

I did have some problems unfurling and furling the jib. Any suggestions on lubrication? I have wd40, motor oil, vaseline and some wheel grease.

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R/Thom
Triak
Getaway
BMW C600
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:22 pm 
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Location: Nepean S.C. Ottawa, Canada
McLube products. There is a silicone product they make in a small tube, great on travelers, furlers etc.
Depending on age, you might do well to rebuild your furler.
Try removing yours, soaking out any sand or similar junk, drying it, then using McLube.

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'Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity. But I'm not sure about the former.'


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:10 pm 
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Thanks, John. BTW, the universe is not infinite, it is only 30 Billion light years in diameter. It is getting larger, though.

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Triak
Getaway
BMW C600
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:34 pm 
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tpdavis473 wrote:
Well, it was light breeze on the water...too light. I couldn't make way upwind against a 2 kt current--the wind was 4-8 kts. The boat did sail well, but couldn't point high enough to keep from losing ground. 2 hp motor was barely enough to move boat against that current. I did fly the new spin while the boat was on the trailer after getting back to land. The spin flies fine and there is sufficient visibility under it so I don't have to add windows. Next project is to make a snuffer for it.

I did have some problems unfurling and furling the jib. Any suggestions on lubrication? I have wd40, motor oil, vaseline and some wheel grease.


Keys to light air upwind.
1. Max rake (bottom hole on furler) and loose shrouds. The boat needs to load up the rudders like windsurfer skegs to go upwind at a decent angle.
2. Loose shrouds allow the mast to fall to leeward on a tack. This moves the centre of effort to leeward and the drive from the sails adds to weather helm / rudder load.
3. Stay on the low side. Sail the boat from the leeward side in light air. This helps get a bit more of the windward hull out of the water and reduces drag. Even though the leeward hull is deeper the net result is less wetted surface area and less drag.
These will not change the apparent wind angle you sail at, but this trim will reduce leeway quite a bit. I have to spend a little more time looking at GPS tracks to quantify the improvement.

If the furler bearings are in good shape and spin freely I suspect the forestay was not tight. The jib furls and unfurls much better when there is tension on the mainsheet to hold the mast aft and the forestay tight.

Glad you are out sailing! Getting decent performance from the boat is a challange. Everyone expects a 16 to be fast ... they are surprised when a Getaway is too. 8)

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Sail More. Tinker Less. Enjoy a Hobie Day.
-2013 H16 #1`13780
-2014 Getaway w/wings,spinnaker,& trapeze


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:05 pm 
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Thanks for the tips. We did sit on the leeward side and get the windward hull out of the water. That's particularly important to get the sails to drape correctly. The mainsheet was nearly two blocked so I think the mast rake was as much as there could be. Shrouds could have been looser, I suppose. Battens might have been too tight, though, since they didn't pop over on tacks without some work from below-but main had a decent shape...traveler and mainsheet were amidships. The jib and main weren't quite set correctly together. With main telltales perfect, the jib was luffing slightly. Didn't want to oversheet either sail, though in that light breeze. Tack angles seemed to be 110 or more. I wanted to drag the boom to weather, but traveler doesn't work that way (and no boom). Next time I'll bring a little spare line to haul the main clew to weather and get some better twist at the top of the mainsail. Disappointing, but that's not too surprising for a boat that's new to me. A lot of the fun in boats is learning their quirks--had similar issues with the other boats I owned when they were new to me. I tend to get rid of them once all the surprises are gone.

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Triak
Getaway
BMW C600
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:36 am 
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tpdavis473 wrote:
Thanks for the tips. We did sit on the leeward side and get the windward hull out of the water. That's particularly important to get the sails to drape correctly. The mainsheet was nearly two blocked so I think the mast rake was as much as there could be. Shrouds could have been looser, I suppose. Battens might have been too tight, though, since they didn't pop over on tacks without some work from below-but main had a decent shape...traveler and mainsheet were amidships. The jib and main weren't quite set correctly together. With main telltales perfect, the jib was luffing slightly. Didn't want to oversheet either sail, though in that light breeze. Tack angles seemed to be 110 or more. I wanted to drag the boom to weather, but traveler doesn't work that way (and no boom). Next time I'll bring a little spare line to haul the main clew to weather and get some better twist at the top of the mainsail. Disappointing, but that's not too surprising for a boat that's new to me. A lot of the fun in boats is learning their quirks--had similar issues with the other boats I owned when they were new to me. I tend to get rid of them once all the surprises are gone.


If you have not done it yet, add leech ribbons to help set twist. One above the head of the jib (about inline with the bottom of the Hobie H logo on my sail) One at the same ht as the jib head (about the middle of the big "O" in Hobie) and one about equal distance lower (about the middle od the "I"). It is easy to oversheet the main and stall the upper leech in light air.

I don't think you will find any improvement by pulling the clew to windward. The boat needs speed to go upwind and going for center line boom trim as you would in other boats might allow the boat to sail closer to the apparent wind the VMG and COG will be worse.

I cannot say this often enough. You must have speed before point. With the same jib trim (windward tell just flicking up 50% of the time) and the upper leech ribbon flicking behind the sail 50% of the time I get about 30° apparent out of the boat. This can be 60° off the true wind slow with huge leeway or less than 55° off the true wind with good speed and much less leeway. The sail trim looks identical. The Hobie 16's are getting to 50° off the true wind and I'm using them as a target for upwind VMG.

I use RaceQs on my smart phone to log sailing sessions for review. It is free and a great tool to grade your steering and tacks as well as your sailing angles over the ground. Still early days for me too, but my goal is to beat a H16 in the next two weeks. I think that in 12+ I can do it. Tough in 8-10.

BTW - my sail maker found a hard spot in the jib where the production guys missed a match-up mark in one seam. He thinks it was the cause of leech flutter. Should have the sail back today or tomorrow so I can race Saturday.

Cheers,
R

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Sail More. Tinker Less. Enjoy a Hobie Day.
-2013 H16 #1`13780
-2014 Getaway w/wings,spinnaker,& trapeze


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:05 pm 
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According to Randy Smythe, stalling the main (leach tell tales being sucked behind the mainsail) is the way to go on multihulls. I agree with him on my trimarans. In any case, in light air, the mainsail needs more twist than you can achieve with the traveler in midships. Only the upper third is working and you aren't getting as much drive forward from that part of the sail unless you can bring those top battens windward some.

I did "snake wake" the sail (fall off for speed, head up to point, repeat, repeat). But there just wasn't enough power in the sailplan to make headway against the 2 kt current. The biggest problem wasn't the mainsail, though. The biggest issue IMO was the jib. In light breeze it is sheeted too far outboard. I shoulda barberhauled it to windward. Interestingly, though, when both sails were set to the wind correctly (all telltales flying aft), the boat was still losing ground to the current; but the apparent wind was almost dead ahead...this tells me that there was just too much leeway (exacerbated, of course, by current in the same direction).

I was carrying 400 pounds of people plus 400 pounds of boat. The boat felt balanced (good surprise there, I expected a lot of lee helm), but the fact that the jib wasn't working well probably kept any helm feel from getting to me. I suspect, though, that a centerboard would have been beneficial since the boat didn't track well.

It was disappointing because my Triak (has centerboard) could have made way against that current with that wind...but I confess when I first got the Triak I couldn't have done so. I ended up redesigning the sailplan and making sails for my local conditions before I was happy with the boat.

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Getaway
BMW C600
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:09 pm 
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Still winter, so still not much sailing to do. SO I made a snuffer for the new spinnaker. Here's how I went about it in case anyone wants to make their own. First, figure out how big a hole you need. That's easy; scrunch the spin up into a ball; you'll need a hoop no larger than that. It can be a little smaller though. For mine, I used a small 10" by 12" rubbermaid dishpan (5" deep) as the guess. I cut out the bottom and pulled the sail through easily enough. SO, I reinforced the outside of the dishpan with fiberglass. I also reinforced the corners. Smoothed everything so there weren't any sharp spots. Then I stitched a tube of nylon to the rear of that. Total length is 63 inches which is what you have on the front tramp from the front beam to the mast beam. That's basically it. Have to have some line to attach the snuffer to the front beam as well as to attach the rear of the bag to the Seat bracket. You do have to modify the sail by adding reinforced patches with loops. My spin was 200 inches long from head to the mid-foot. So I put the patches all 50" away from the corners along the angle bisection. Attache the three spots with three equal lengths of line and tie your retrieving line to all three where they meet in the center of the spin. SO, deploy spin by pulling halyard, retrieve spin by releasing halyard (and sheets/guys) and pulling on the retrieval line. The spin fits with a little to spare on the front tramp.

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Triak
Getaway
BMW C600
Formerly raced F24 Mk II


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