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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:16 am 
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This is going to get off to a blundering start but...

Was wondering about navigating techniques many of you use, or have developed.

Brief explanation: While talking with my wife -- who is new to sailing -- I realized she was assuming that a sailboat could do many of the same things as a powerboat.

So, in a powerboat, if an island that is 1,000 yards away is the destination, just turn the wheel, throttle up and stay off the sandbars (inland or sound waters).

However, knowing how to get a sailboat from point A to point B with the wind blowing from a particular angle requires first planning a course for navigating there. (This is assuming you are not sailing in large, open waters.)

For example, sailing to point B with the wind coming from a 45 degree angle off the starboard bow: The best course may be to sail on a starboard tack to a point well to the left of the target. Then tack back to land.

Just curious about the thinking that many of you use to plot courses when you are on the water or before you get on the water.

This is not about racing per se. Nor is it only about teaching the new sailor per se.

I feel that it's more about being capable of first assessing the wind and boat and course. This is one of the best things about sailing IMO.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:33 am 
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A bit more...

I sail out of one location where the ramp is in a "cul de sac" and getting out of the canal that leads to it is quite a trick.

It's not just a shove off the beach and into open water. Plus most of my sailing is done in a sound and along the inland waterway where sandbars and lee shores make it something of an obstacle course.

I usually pick a point to paddle to and launch so that the wind will take the boat out into open water and away from shoals and other boat traffic.

From this starting point, I must pick another point that I want to sail to where the water is open, all the while watching the wind conditions to assure that I will get there with a minimal amount of change and interference.

Planning ahead is not just a good idea, it is a necessity.

I find that I am constantly having to watch and pick points to sail to and plot a course.

I don't mind this because I think it sharpens my skills. There is a lot to assess as you go along. Plus these skills do translate into use in open water racing as well since you have to watch wave chop, changing wind, and the boat's tendency to crab.

So my question is what conditions and boat responses do most look for and how do you prioritize those conditions?

It is certainly a must to have a working knowledge of channel markers if you are sailing in tidal waters...


Last edited by JJ on Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:58 am 
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oh-tay

Everybody likes pictures.

Here are two sailors who have/had some navigational problems:

http://photos.sfsurvey.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG0rckUbMAQ

IIRC, the Santana got caught in some tricky currents and then the whole thing snowballed...er, hit the slippery slope... oh man, no good metaphors for this: He got caught in the wave?

Final Jeopardy clue here?? "Look before you...?"


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:27 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:07 pm
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Location: Alberta, CAN
Wow, those are scary pictures... I hope I won't ever have to sail under similar conditions. To me, I am just happy to be a fair weather sailor... just like golf LOL!

BTW, those waves/white caps under the Golden Gate look pretty overwhelming... these surfers sure are fearless... I just don't understand what that sailboat was doing there, is that a pretty well known condition there or was it just an unexpected surf?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:27 am 
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Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 4:55 am
Posts: 11
Location: Southern NJ
A basic rule of thumb that was told to me from a seasoned yacht owner. "Always sail with the tide."
I sailed my wave dozens of different interesting places. Twice I didn't follow the rule and we ended up hailing a tow, or waiting for the tide to change. We would do our homework a day in advance. Looking up the launch point on Map Quest and getting the tide schedule and winds in that area for the day. (If it was an hour sail to the destination we launched 2 hours before low tide, hung out at our destination until tide change and come back during high tide.) Even in slow wind conditions we always were able to come back in on the tide.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:28 pm 
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Location: San Francisco Bay Area
In response to your navigation question. I think a way to quantify your "sail well left of the target" scenario is to imagine a line 90 degrees to your course. I'm assuming here that you're pointing as high as you can, which begs another question, do I sail slower toward the target, or faster slightly away from the target (which I'll address in a minute). When, and only when the 90 degree line of your next imaginary tack intersects with your destination should you even contemplate tacking, unless seaway, draft constraints or other external factors impinge on the decision tree. Given that most sailboats tack within a few degrees either way of 90 degrees, it's a good rule of thumb (actually more of a guideline). Other factors will affect the 90 degree "rule", such as tide. Once I factored for slip with a lee shore situation, and the tide took me upwind until I had to dodge the upwind shoreline. Being an eternal pessimist, I usually sail well past the 90 degree line, which usually does two things. It allows you to almost always hit your target as planned, and if you're a tad upwind, you have some wiggle room if you need to fall off to avoid things like powerboaters, etc.

Back to the question I raised about close-hauled vs. close-reaching. If you're going 8 knots for one mile, it'll take you 7.5 minutes to get there. If you have to travel farther to go faster (i.e. fall off), and that gets you up to 10 knots, that'll get you 1.25 miles in the same amount of time. So, depending on the math it often times is better to sail farther out of your way to get to your destination, and we all know that faster is more fun. I've had to break myself of the habit of pinching my tacks to sail in as straight a line as possible to get to the destination, and I'm often times passed by people sailing apparently way out of their way.

With regards to your second question, I too have had trouble sailing in and out of fairways to get to the ramp. Most notably in Laguna Madre while barhopping Padre on my Getaway. I'm glad you have the right attitude about it being a learning experience. I would try heaving to, meaning tack the boat without bringing the jib across. That way, you have some lift from the sails, but it won't get away from you, and when you do clear whatever obstacle you're trying to get around, you're a lot closer to sailing than if you had to raise the sail, which means less drifting while you're hauling. This is a theoretical suggestion only. I can already see that part of heaving to is pushing the tiller hard over, which will certainly affect tracking and make paddling more problematic. I will be trying it soon myself for the first time in the next few weeks.

Concerning priorities:
1) Safety of captain, crew and others
2) Safety of boat and other property
3) Physical obstructions (i.e. daymarks, lee shores, boathouses, docks, piers, boats in their slips, downed skiiers, etc. This sort of blurs into the previous two.
4) Comfort of your crew. If you're sailing with a bunch of newbies and you fly a hull, some of them may not come back. I often use a potential spilled beverage as a litmus test for sailing with newbies. Once they get comfortable, then you can fly a hull.
5) Efficiency of sail (i.e. proper sail trim, sailing toward your destination, etc.)

I always say that sailing is easy, sailing well is hard. I also think that besides the obvious, being a good captain is making sure everyone has a good time, regardless of how technically well the boat is sailed.

My $0.02,

Chris
~~(\_~~


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:49 pm 
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BTW, if you're sailing off-wind slightly, the 90 degree "rule" gives you much more margin for error on your next tack. This topic was discussed very well on another thread, using vectors, which to me is the only way to deal with these issues. See: http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=9991

_________________
Sea ya,
Chris Larsen
Co-Pilot of the Hobie Getaway
"The Twins"

~~(\_~~


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:06 am 
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Thanks, Raybee and Chris.

Few thoughts on this later as have the time...

Chris, I notice the 16 forum does have some good thoughts on boat handling (which is what I'm after actually anyway).

Yes, as a "learning experience" all is good.

Two places to avoid when sailing:

1. Obviously, places where you will get cornered and in trouble, like the Santana and Laser did in the links above.

2. Having NOT explained things to your wife BEFORE you get on the boat to avoid hearing, "No, sail over there. Sail that way! What is wrong with you?!"


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:01 am 
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Location: San Francisco Bay Area
One of the reasons I stressed crew comfort so heavily is to avoid those kind of discussions (which can make the difference between a good day and a long day). Obviously a briefing beforehand of what can be expected eliminates a lot of the fear of the unknown. Having been in your shoes several times, I totally understand.

There was a recent writeup in "Latitude 38" about an inexperienced crew who mutinied against the captain on a monohull because they were all afraid for their lives and ended up losing them because the didn't listen to the captain. Unfortunately, the captain chose to go into the water after his wife, rather than stay with the boat, so everyone was lost. An overly dramatic example, I know, but it's all about experience, knowledge, trust and expectations. Did you see "Perfect Storm"?

With regards to the Santana, that boat got into trouble because the captain completely underestimated the effect of the tides, the wind, how fast his boat could sail in relation to them, and the way they interact with each other. As a recent sojourner onto San Francisco Bay, I'm learning everything I can about tides, currents, weather, etc. and I certainly am not going to take my Precision 21 out under the Gate.

_________________
Sea ya,
Chris Larsen
Co-Pilot of the Hobie Getaway
"The Twins"

~~(\_~~


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:42 pm
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Location: Irvine, California
Conditions can change in a heartbeat. One should never assume that the wind will blow steady at the speed and direction it is blowing.

At Dana Point Harbor, where I launch, it's a canyon and the wind swirls around it like a flushing toilet.

I watch flags everywhere I can see them, ripples and waves on the water, and other sailboats to gauge where, what direction, and how hard the wind is blowing in diferent sections of the harbor. Once I'm out of the harbor, out on the ocean, it's fairly consistent, but not always. With Santa Ana conditions, winds have changed direction radically and even stalled out completely. My experience with lakes have led me to understand that wind blows in many different directions, depending on what part of the lake you are on.


Never stop looking and evaluating, no matter how calm and consistent it is.

Tides, Wind, bottom conditions, "boiling water" (never a good sign), other boaters (a BIG problem, here).....

....And stay within your capabilities. I want to have fun, not work my butt off or stress the whole time I'm out.


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