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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:09 am 
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Many of us have modified Watersnake ASP T24 or T18 motors (see my post and many others). For something like $120 for the motor and some tinkering time, you get a nice setup, small, light, capable and such.

The other side of spectrum is ~$2000 evolve.

I think that there's a place for a 35#-ish thrust ~$350 motor - something that would still fit through the mirage drive well. Perhaps rare earth magnets, electronic speed control inside of a smallish dedicated control box (4x4x8"). Motor integrated into mirage plug-shaped cassette. Total weight under 12lb should be doable. License the 2 blade prop from Evolve.

Whatcha think ?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:31 am 
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What you're describing is basically the eVolve.

If it could be done cheaper I think someone would have done it already.

Let's to a quick price check:

The eVolve prop alone retails for $100.
A good quality potted ESC like a Minn Kota Traxxis board retails for $130.

I don't see the balance of the parts coming in at $120 retail. You need pretty advanced magnets, electronic commutation etc. to keep a 35lb motor small enough to fit thru the well. If you opt for non-direct drive then you're adding other parts & making it mechanically complicated. I also think you need to run at higher voltage to keep things efficient. So, a 12V system probably would put you back in the larger magnets with brushes category.

Not an engineer, so I could be wrong.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:51 pm 
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There are serious drawbacks to putting a motor in the slot where the Mirage drive goes. It negates being able to assist the motor by pedaling as well. It also is going to be subject to damage when coming in to the shore or going over shallow sections of water. The best setup is with the Torqueedo off the stern and using the steering of the boat for the rudder in tandem. The second best is the Bassyack approach that works less well with the Hobie boats but at least can be raised when coming in to the shore or will flip up if something is hit to minimize damage to the boat or the drive unit.

You also need a battery (or one heck of a long extension cord and a converter) to power the electric motor. The Torqueedo includes in its price a lithium-ion battery. The cost to add a 50 Ah lithium-ion battery to any boat is $700. One can use a standard sealed lead acid or gel type battery in 22NF size with 50 Ah and a weight of 40 lbs. as compared to the same capacity in a lithium-ion battery that weighs only 15 lbs.

Reliability is a factor as is the efficiency of the motor. The Toqeedo can provide at least 25% more distance with a given amount of battery capacity than trolling motors. The Torqeedo also includes an accurate charge meter so one can determine the rate of discharge and remaining distance that can be covered with the existing charge level of the battery. If I am using an electric motor to get an extra 5-10 miles offshore or to allow for fishing in an area with strong currents I want to be sure that the drive unit will not leave me stranded.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:54 pm 
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The interesting thing, and we built two of them, is to motorize the Mirage Drive with windshield wiper motors, with an adjustable linkage to allow for changes in power/speed and disconnect once you wanted to pedal under human power. Once we got onto other things we sort of let that idea drift. But it worked at least as well as any trolling motor we hooked up.

Beyond that, you can certainly add a trolling motor set up to any Hobie for under $350. The biggest hang up is the weight of the battery. To reduce it you need to go with some sort of lithium battery and your cost has just shot back up towards a grand.

Otherwise there are plenty of options and do-it-yourself trolling motor systems out there. The latter come in at just a couple to three hundred dollars.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:27 am 
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Nice discussion we got going, lovin it !

On motor - I am not talking the BLDC here (which is what Evolve is). Regular brushed 12VDC. I believe, with better magnets, one could squeeze 35# thrust out of something that would still fit through the drive well. If Watersnake can sell a 24# motor for $100 and still turn a profit, we should be able to get to 35# for about $250.

On electronic speed control - PWM 12VDC controls are so cheap nowadays, it is not even funny. $20 in volume.

On batteries - let the buyers get their own. I ended up buying 4 100AH LiFePo4 cells for $360 total. Never used more than 35AH while on the water, so I am 3x over provisioned :)

One could get a 40AH Lifepo4 battery, with built-in PCM and 10A charger included, in 3"x8"x8" (!) footprint and under 14lb weight (!), for under $400. Bees knees, pure and simple. Thousands of charge cycles, steady voltage the whole way etc etc.

There's always AGM for budget folx. About $100 for 35AH.

I love the simplicity and small form factor of through-mirage-well design. When not in use, you can stow away the whole thing under the front bin.Should you get something tangled up in the prop, you yank that baby out and fix it in a 30 seconds flat.

For me , hitting an underwater obstacle is not an issue. A risk of flipping the boat in surf is much higher risk - so I can't quite have 30lb (weight) regular trolling motor in the yak. There's simply nowhere for it to be stored, no way to secure it when one flips etc.

Anyway, just an idea for Hobie. I love the Co, they seem to be constantly evolving :), my kind of ppl. If they had affordable unit like one I am proposing, many more older farts would end up owning yaks, a win for everybody.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:39 pm 
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I wouldn't trust those $20 Chinese scooter controllers. I know a lot of guys use them & they do work, but the build quality is TERRIBLE.

I have 3 different 12V ESC/PWM setups.

1. A Motorguide VariMax 45 head with a 6" aluminum shaft bolted to a Scotty 412 Rod Holder Post. This can be stuck in any Scotty Gear Head or deck mount provided the cables reach. The build quality is very good with fully potted electronics, 70/80A rated relays, an optocoupled potentiometer, and substantial heatsink that uses the aluminum shaft as part of the sink...clever design. This unit should easily handle ~70A loads.

2. An old Minn Kota EM44 control module & hand box. The module is a 3x4x5.5 inch box that fits pretty much anywhere & the hand box has a ~10' cord, which is WAY long for a yak. Fully potted electronics, 70/80A rated relays, a substantial heatsink, potted contacts in the hand box, water resistant connectors. This unit was made in 2001 and still works fine & shows no signs of failure (corrosion, leaky capacitors, etc.). The only thing I don't like is that the boxes are not waterproofed, but could be made so. Again, this unit should handle ~70A loads.

3. A $30 Chinese scooter controller. I made a hand box with a 5' cable and good Vishay IP68 rated pot. Works fine, but take a look inside. The board is almost a solid mass of solder. The only separation between the board and the case is a thin sheet of acetate. The leads extend WAY beyond the back of the board & threaten to poke through the acetate. No relays, just cheap MOSFETS. No potting, but to be fair it's not marketed as a marine unit. Thin aluminum bar heatsink screwed to the aluminum enclosure to act as the primary sink. The control pot provided is junk & will fail in a marine environment quickly. It claims 30A but I wouldn't try it for long. This thing is just an accident waiting to happen - a short, component failure, corrosion, cold solder joint. You can upgrade the enclosure, pot the board, replace the pot (like I did) etc., but you may as we'll just spend the money on a better unit. I wouldn't trust this unit on the water.

So...I think a good quality ESC is going to run more than $20 :) .


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:08 pm 
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35# thrust is way overkill. Don't need that much power. Hulls weren't designed for speed. Excess power is just wasted. Just my opinion. I would like to see something more affordable plug n play though.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:59 am 
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Besides your excellent comments, the weight of the standard batteries is a huge issue.

I have the Bass Yak conversion for my Freedom Hawk Pathfinder, and it eats up a single small 12 volt battery in a little over 1 hour. So I added another battery in a battery box. Now, instead of 1-2 hours at slow speed, I get 2-3 hours of slow speed besides the hassle of the batteries and their weight. I'm in my mid 70's with a bad rotator cuff and recovering from major foot surgery with a weight limit of about 25 pounds of dead lift.

The Torqueedo 403 Kayak motor may be the best option. With a Hobie Mirage Yak, you can keep your Mirage in the yak and working. If you need the electric power, you can drop the Torqueedo into the water at your stern and go. The total weight is 15 pounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNQdWqSQXl4

You can buy a Torqueedo 403 for about $500 less than their Hobie version.

Wintersun wrote:
There are serious drawbacks to putting a motor in the slot where the Mirage drive goes. It negates being able to assist the motor by pedaling as well. It also is going to be subject to damage when coming in to the shore or going over shallow sections of water. The best setup is with the Torqueedo off the stern and using the steering of the boat for the rudder in tandem. The second best is the Bassyack approach that works less well with the Hobie boats but at least can be raised when coming in to the shore or will flip up if something is hit to minimize damage to the boat or the drive unit.

You also need a battery (or one heck of a long extension cord and a converter) to power the electric motor. The Torqueedo includes in its price a lithium-ion battery. The cost to add a 50 Ah lithium-ion battery to any boat is $700. One can use a standard sealed lead acid or gel type battery in 22NF size with 50 Ah and a weight of 40 lbs. as compared to the same capacity in a lithium-ion battery that weighs only 15 lbs.

Reliability is a factor as is the efficiency of the motor. The Toqeedo can provide at least 25% more distance with a given amount of battery capacity than trolling motors. The Torqeedo also includes an accurate charge meter so one can determine the rate of discharge and remaining distance that can be covered with the existing charge level of the battery. If I am using an electric motor to get an extra 5-10 miles offshore or to allow for fishing in an area with strong currents I want to be sure that the drive unit will not leave me stranded.

_________________
2009 Oasis
2012 Freedom Hawk Pathfinder


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:31 am 
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Gas Yakker wrote:
What you're describing is basically the eVolve.

If it could be done cheaper I think someone would have done it already.

Let's to a quick price check:

The eVolve prop alone retails for $100.
A good quality potted ESC like a Minn Kota Traxxis board retails for $130.

I don't see the balance of the parts coming in at $120 retail. You need pretty advanced magnets, electronic commutation etc. to keep a 35lb motor small enough to fit thru the well. If you opt for non-direct drive then you're adding other parts & making it mechanically complicated. I also think you need to run at higher voltage to keep things efficient. So, a 12V system probably would put you back in the larger magnets with brushes category.

Not an engineer, so I could be wrong.


You are out of your mind if you think a drive well motor for a Hobie kayak couldn't be built cheaper than $2000. $2000 is robbery plain and simple for an electric trolling motor, I don't care how "advanced" it is.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:42 am 
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Gas yakker:
No I don't think you are wrong. The trolling motor industry is very strange, every manufacturer designs their products to fit on a 16 ft bass boat which normally has a large motor and electrical system anyway so speed and battery life is not a factor. Basically run the trolling motor to troll your bass boat at two to three mph for an hr or two, then fire up the merc 225 to get you to the next fishing area, the main boat battery is charged along the way. In the trolling motor manufactures minds this is the way all thing work, nobody has ever lifted a finger to think of anything different, like a bunch of sheep following all the same old crap following the now mostly dead powerboat industry. The entire industry is lazy and not ever willing to think outside of the box beating each other up on price trying to push the same old crap to us. Nothing new and creative out there at all. It's not torqeedos fault for coming out with a comprehensive state of the art solution that breaks the mold on all this archaic thinking trying to push all this old crap from 1980's thinking on this generation of kayakers and kayak fishermen. I applaud them for doing so. It's all the other idiots (manufacturers) that can't come out with something that can compete on the same playing field, only then will the prices come down to something affordable (competition is what makes the world work). Convince these other companies to get their heads out of the sand and we will see reasonably priced systems for our industry and needs (which btw is much larger than the bass boat industry) but the manufacturers are too stupid and lazy to know this.
Don't blame torqeedo, in my opinion they are doing it right. Right no they have nobody even in the same realm to compete with (that's the problem).
My 2 cents
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:11 pm 
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Maybe I am out of mind since I'm not exactly sure where I said a 35 lb drivewell motor couldn't be built for less than $2,000. Of course it can, but I think any company would be hard pressed to offer 35 lbs of thrust with variable speed in that small a form factor for $350, which is what the OP is inquiring about. Believe me, I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

The current state of trolling motor affairs is as Bob says- there's the old school 12V-24V-36V brushed motors & there's the Torqueedo. Trust Bob - he's old & wise :D .

I'm no Torqueedo zealot. Too rich for my blood. I own two 18lb Watersnakes & a 35AH AGM batt.

I think Torqueedo could offer a budget version without proprietary batteries (maybe tune the system to 24V instead of 29V, or whatever it is) & all the GPS features etc., but I'd be shocked if it came in under $800 to $1,000. Too many expensive materials & precision machining to make the motor that small & light.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:40 am 
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Gas Yakker wrote:
Maybe I am out of mind since I'm not exactly sure where I said a 35 lb drivewell motor couldn't be built for less than $2,000. Of course it can, but I think any company would be hard pressed to offer 35 lbs of thrust with variable speed in that small a form factor for $350, which is what the OP is inquiring about. Believe me, I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

The current state of trolling motor affairs is as Bob says- there's the old school 12V-24V-36V brushed motors & there's the Torqueedo. Trust Bob - he's old & wise :D .

I'm no Torqueedo zealot. Too rich for my blood. I own two 18lb Watersnakes & a 35AH AGM batt.

I think Torqueedo could offer a budget version without proprietary batteries (maybe tune the system to 24V instead of 29V, or whatever it is) & all the GPS features etc., but I'd be shocked if it came in under $800 to $1,000. Too many expensive materials & precision machining to make the motor that small & light.


Maybe I read your post wrong, my bad. I still think a motor comparable to the torqueedo could be built and sold for a fraction of the $2000 price.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:57 am 
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I suspect that a huge portion of the money involved in the Torqeedo unit isn't the motor, but the battery and the sophisticated control module. Frankly, I think the module provides a lot of information that many people could care less about, but it is what it is. Without it, I suspect the cost would fall by at least half.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:06 pm 
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Xi Bowhunter:
We all agree with you 10,000 percent. Torqeedo is nice but way too expensive, unfortunately none of the other manufacturers seem willing or up to the task to do anything about it, still thinking '80's technology' where trolling motors only went on powerboats with 225 mercs on them, and were only used intermittently, never for main propulsion. If we can get their (the manufacturers) heads out of their buts, maybe someone will come out with something more in the realm of reality. I'm willing to bet Torqeedo makes a huge profit on every unit they sell to us suckers over here, and are laughing all the way to the bank. Of course this is all just my opinion. ( it's competition that makes the world work, if you have none you can charge whatever you like).
Yea I could probably design and build something for myself and begin using it just for my own use but why should I have to, this is not rocket science. My opinion is the kayak and the kayak fishing market is way bigger than the bass powerboat boat industry these days (who can afford the gas and maint). Just speaking for my self, we simply couldn't afford to keep our 24ft Sea Ray any longer ($60k plus for the boat, $375/month for dry storage, fuel at the marina is over $4.50 per gallon and our Sea Ray had I think an 80 gallon tank, (that $360 bucks to fill up), and maint because of salt water was thru the roof. Who in the heck can afford that anymore??????.
The sole reason I have the gas engines on my TI is I simply could not find anything out there that does want I want to do, very frustrating.
The only saving grace for me is my boat is human/sail/hybrid gas powered, so I can go out and sail all day for about a buck in gas, and my Honda engines are extremely quiet because I only use them at just above idle (about 1/4 throttle) which gives me all the speed I could want for (8-12 mph).
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:28 pm 
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cmoan wrote:
35# thrust is way overkill. Don't need that much power. Hulls weren't designed for speed. Excess power is just wasted. Just my opinion. I would like to see something more affordable plug n play though.


I disagree.

This powered my Quest 13 since 2008. The key is to use the bigger motor at lower amps. Rarely used it at its full 30 amp (speed 5 setting). I used speed 3 as my full power setting as the payoff at speed 5 is a waste (of battery). It can hit 6 mph at speed 5 but when speed 3 is not much slower its not a big deal and pulls like 18 amps (if I remember correctly). Got 8 hours of fishing in out of a 30 amp Deka many times. Not 8 hours of run time, but fishing time.

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