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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:14 pm 
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is sailing kayaks anglers the same as mother shipping kayak anglers for the keeping of kayak fishing records.. i need some help here if you dont believe mother ships and kayak sailing should be in the same category for kayak fish records, please help vote. here is the poll link http://forum.kayak4fish.com/viewtopic.php?t=9916
should these be compared to these?

Image

Image

does the above look like this

Image

Image


Image

if you support sailing kayak angling will you vote at the above link. Aloha Boogie-D

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Last edited by boogie-d on Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:57 am 
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Jim likes pushing your buttons.

You may sail, pedal or paddle out a few miles. All he has to do is call the boys, crank up the stink pot and off they go to meet you. You're wore of from the trip out while he just finished lunch, fresh and ready to go.

It's not even close to being the same. He knows it. He just can't admit that using a mothership is his sponsor's way of getting him on camera.

Start out from the beach, dock, pier, whatever and pedal, paddle, sail out. Tourney begins at a certain time or when you get the boat wet.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:00 pm 
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:roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:04 pm 
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Jim Sammons is a great guy and a pioneer for our sport.

Why are you bad mouthing him behind his back?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:20 pm 
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steamroll wrote:
Jim Sammons is a great guy and a pioneer for our sport.

Why are you bad mouthing him behind his back?



I just call them like I see them. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:28 am 
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I don't know Jim Sammons from a NJ tourist walking down Miami Beach, but anyone who claims using an AI or other sailing kayak is similar to kayaking out of a mother boat, if he is serious, is trying to hide some serious doubts about his endeavor.

Keith

Update: Since I posted this I looked at your link above and realized that the "comparison" between sailing kayaks and kayaking from a mother ship was WITH REGARD TO FISHING RECORDS. I think Jim Sammons has a perfectly logical point. I'm not into fishing records, but Sammons is simply expressing a viewpoint which is probably the vast majority view. Is it easier to catch some gamefish by fishing from a mothership? Yes, I'm sure it is, but I'm not sure people who fish from sailing kayaks should be upset about that. Fishing from a kayak and a sailing kayak is the user's choice.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:47 pm 
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This discussion is about how kayak fishing records should be kept. i initially supported only one class that was paddle or peddle only. to and from the beach unassisted. this was easiest and most pure to the sport.


However certain people who use mother ships to kayak angle did not like this and wanted a class for records kept for those who participate in mother ship kayak angling. initially records were kept in one category which included mother shipping and pure. that seemed a little unfair to the guys that only paddle. so the keeper of the records made another class or category to included mother ship kayak angling records. in this class the keeper of the records decided to put sailing kayak anglers in the same class or category as the kayak anglers who use mother ships.

so there are now 2 classes for the record keeping. one for the pure paddle guys and one for everything else. my opinion is there should be three classes or just one. if your going to make records for mother shipping then you should acknowledge sailing as a seperate style. to me they are very different and to put them in one class together seems odd. however i am one man, one opinion. your opinion and vote at the above poll link is your choice and your input is appreciated whatever your opinion may be. aloha to all keep having fun Boogie-D

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:56 pm 
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All of the record classification systems I've seen argued are spurious. Catch difficulty is inherent in the circumstances.

Impressive catches can be had just strokes (paddle or pedal) from the beach. A significant mothership catch may require 20 miles of off-boat travel and a full day on the water. Discerning which is more significant is in the eye of the beholder.

It is hard to say just what catches my eye as a kayak fishing writer. Frankly, I dismiss anything hooked from another platform and fought on the kayak. Likewise for fish landed with the assistance of a large vessel. You had a perfectly good fishing vessel at your disposal, why not stay there? Other than for fun, a worthwhile motivation. I always ask myself, why the kayak, was there a valid fishing reason for choosing the platform?

Limpet-chewing Howard McKim's paddle out and back 183-lb halibut rates infinitely higher in my mind than Bluewater Jon's 111-lb yellowfin. The latter was hooked on a mothership. Full disclosure - Jon doesn't claim his tuna as a record, and it is an impressive catch in its own way - just not comparable.

It's all in the context.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:33 pm 
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OK so I just heard about this discussion going on over here. For those that have not visited my site here are two responses posted by readers. I don't think I could of said it any better myself so I am quoting them.

Quote:
These are kayak fishing records we are considering. Paddle primarily, but generously expanded to pedal-drive by consensus. Any deviation from a launch-off-the-beach trip falls outside the category. Jim has provided a second category for these deviant catches - he has chosen to call it "assisted."

It doesn't matter how mothershipping to your fishing spot compares to sailing there - only that both are beyond the definition of a pure kayak catch


Quote:
Crux of the argument seems to revolve around emotions on comparing mothershipping to kayak sailing.

But the records are not that. They are simply--
1) pure, unassisted (no assist at leader), catches paddle (peddle) out from shore and back in solo.
2) All other records that don't fall into category 1

So sailing is not categorized with mothershipping...it is merely not eligible for category 1-- and if you want to participate-- use category 2. Just as someone helping to land a big fish (even if pure paddle out/in) would make you ineligible for category 1. Category 1 is also pretty basically the generally accepted rules that apply to most kayakfishing tournaments out here.

If you don't want to participate in the record portion-- don't. I do appreciate how the sailing adds to some additional complication-- but as mentioned it does add significant range (hence an assit) vs paddle/peddle.
Ultimately-- there is no money involved here-- bragging rights only. This has not been defined as THE OFFICIAL KAYAKFISHING records site. So, much ado about nothing.


For the record I have never in any way disregarded the sails or Hobie products. Like stated above, this was only in the definition of Kayak Fishing Records.
I personally think Hobie has some of the most innovative and creative designers and engineers working on their boats, which are a great product.


For the process of keeping "Kayak Fishing" records I asked if the AI was a kayak or a sail boat. I have been taking the heat for asking the question, but I am not the one that gave the answer, readers on forums all over the country answered. And that answer was overwhelmingly that the AI is not a kayak it is a sailboat.
A fun boat yes, a great product yes, but not a kayak.

So then the subject of sails on any kayak came up.
Boogies question in the poll is a little misleading in that he feels we are comparing sails to mothership, which as stated is not the case.

Here are some definitions of the word Kayak
In almost every definition of the word "kayak" propelled by a double bladed paddle comes up, so when you are paddling it...it is a kayak.

Quote:
# A decked craft in which the paddlers sit with legs extended and propel the craft with a double blade paddle.
www.paddling.net/guidelines/showArticle.html

# an Eskimo canoe made of a skin-covered frame with a small opening and propelled by a double-bladed paddle
www.northstar.k12.ak.us/schools/awe/noyes/glossary.html

# The term kayak is derived from usage in arctic languages where it describes a long narrow hunting boat propelled by single or double paddles. There are a variety of spellings including kajak, qayaq, qajaq et al. ...
www.pouchboats.com/glossary.html

# A slender decked boat which is propelled by seated paddlers using double bladed paddles. Derived from the Eskimos.
www.canoeingdownunder.com.au/glossary.htm

# A decked craft similar to a canoe and propelled by a double or single-bladed paddle.
www.kayakingjournal.com/kayak-terminology.html

# Self-propelled watercraft in which paddler is fully enclosed and uses a double-bladed paddle from a sitting position.
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/ol ... nterms.htm

So once again in terms of Kayak Fishing records where does the sail come in.

Well in order to give the Kayak Fishing Purists their place we have the true kayak fishing records.
Unassisted: Paddle out catch your fish with no help and Paddle Back, because of the popularity and because it is also human powered we also allow Pedals such as the Hobie.

The other Category was simply
Assisted: As in not eligible for the other "Pure" category.
Assisted as is you had some kind of assist over just paddling.
Assisted as in you used a sail to get there, an advantage over paddling
Assisted as in you have outriggers on your boat an advantage in landing larger fish over a single hull.
Assisted as in used a mother ship to get to the location a huge advantage over a straight from the beach paddler.
Assisted as in you did not do it yourself but had help landing the fish.
All fish must be hooked fought and landed from the kayak.

Here is the definition of the word assist

as·sist (ə-sĭst') Pronunciation Key
v. as·sist·ed, as·sist·ing, as·sists

v. tr.
To give help or support to, especially as a subordinate or supplement; aid: The clerk assisted the judge by looking up related precedents. Her breathing was assisted by a respirator.

v. intr.

To give aid or support. See Synonyms at help.
To be present, as at a conference.

n.
An act of giving aid; help.
Sports
A fielding and throwing of a baseball in such a way that enables a teammate to put out a runner.
A pass, as in basketball or ice hockey, that enables the receiver to score a goal.
Official credit that is given for such a pass.
A mechanical device providing aid.


Once again we were not in anyway putting down the use of these other sources of stability or propultion. We were just saying they are not in the first category, they had an assist. All of them in some fashion had an assist over the straight unassisted paddler for Kayak Fishing records

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:42 pm 
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Jim. I didn't see a definition for "mothership". :lol: :lol: :lol:

Try an AI, or a Revo sometime. You might even like it. You won't catch anything. Well, maybe the "gotta have a Hobie flu".

Paddle, pedal, sail? Who cares.....


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:06 pm 
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I have tried both the revo and the Adventure never the AI.
As stated before Hobie makes a great product. The Adventure and the Revo without sail outriggers could still be in the unassisted category. Pedals are cool and self propelled. Right now I prefer to paddle over peddle that may not always be the case, I have had four shoulder surgeries from old work and sports injuries so you may some day see me peddling my way across the sea, maybe even with a sail up, because that does look like a lot of fun.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:17 pm 
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Take care of those shoulders Jim. It's alot easier to pedal and cast a line.

A cold one in one hand and a rod in the other. It doesn't get any better than that.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:04 pm 
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fishin' fool wrote:
Jim. I didn't see a definition for "mothership". :lol: :lol: :lol:

Try an AI, or a Revo sometime. You might even like it. You won't catch anything. Well, maybe the "gotta have a Hobie flu".

Paddle, pedal, sail? Who cares.....


Read his post again. "Assisted as in used a mother ship to get to the location a huge advantage over a straight from the beach paddler."

When Jim uses the term paddle, he also is including peddle. He may not be as PC as some people that hyphenate everything to make sure they include everybody and does not hurt anyone's feelings. Jim has set up two catagories for records in "Assisted" and "Un-assisted". You are unassisted if you paddle OR peddle from shore, land the fish yourself, and paddle OR peddle back in. If you are doing anything else, you are in the assisted catagory simply because you do not fit in to the unassisted catagory. Simple and clean. Even if you paddle OR peddle from the beach, have somebody else help you land your catch, and paddle OR peddle back to the beach you are in the assisted catagory as well. I don't think anybody is equating sailing an AI with the aid of a mother ship, but they are both assisted.

Who cares really? Go out and catch some fish.

GO PACKERS! :D


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:55 pm 
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Quote:
GO PACKERS! :D


Sorry Joe, hitch up to the Chargers band-wagon. We're going the same direction - home until next year. But yeah, you explained Jim's system very well. He is not comparing mothershipping to sailing. If you're not "pure" (paddle or pedal out, hook, fight, and land your fish yourself, and then paddle or pedal back), you fall under assisted. The end.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:58 pm 
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jim states he only uses a mother ship 1 percent of the time. that isnt very much. however he has created a class to meet that 1 percent. maybe the 1 pecent should just have there own catagory for those 1 percent. i think maybe the percentage of sailors may be higher. i had a long talk with steve hausser on the big isle. i really respect his take on things. he suggested something to me i would like to share. we got into the long discussion of records. he came up with this suggestion.

1) traditional: the eskimo freaks
2) traditional modified: for everything else except motors
3) unlimmited: go crazy with mother shipping get a moku jet yak.

any way you look at i really believe there should be three classes i dont see why jim you want to dispute this so much. your loosing at the poles on your site. is one more class that difficult to add. i think this is a simple solutiton that will keep the magority happy.

a funny thing to me is all the definiton of kayak and eskimo. my personal view is they are natives using what they used. what about local natives world wide who used such similar craft and why limit our sport to eskimos. so this is what eskimos used. what did the balinease use what did tahitians use what did hawaiians use what about the chumash. one thing i do know is they didnt have any help from motors so to put us sailing folk in with mother shipping is just plain wrong sorry.

we are assisted by sailing yes. we are natural assisted just like other native craft all over the world. we are not assisted by a motor in any way. you may not call the wind pure but what do you call one of the oldest forms of travel known to man. sailing is not eskimo does that mean us sailors have to be stuck with motors.

take aloha dans story for instance he went on a sail to a bouy 12 miles out. he had a freind with a boat keep an eye on him. dan ran out of wind had to peddle his ass off and never reached the goal of the buoy. however the freind on the boat did make the buoy and found a floater full of mahi. now just suppose jim was on that boat and made the bouy and floater and caught a big mahi. i dont see how you can compare the two in the catagory of assisted, when one has obviouys advantage over the other.

I am not trying to put anyone down just recognize people accomplishments. i really want to see an end to this records discussion and the solutions found. aloha Boogie-D
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