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 Post subject: Faster with outriggers?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:09 pm 
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Location: San Diego
Was wondering if a Mirage or Mirage Sport using the standard Hobie sail would sail a little, somewhat, a lot, or mega faster if outfitted with an outrigger system like one of these:

Image

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Does the sail get the Mirage going to a certain max speed no matter what, or could that speed be increased appreciably by using such an outrigger system?

Thanks,

Dansker

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:55 pm 
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In reply to your question about outriggers: The hull design ultimately determines how fast you can go. If you manage to exceed it, you might just bury the bow of the yak and 'pitch-pole' into the drink. What the hull of the outback can make underway--well, you got me. As to the out riggers, I've been using them for some time now ( the ones depicted third and fourth down in your photos) and find that though they add a little drag, they actually allow me to make better use of the wind by increasing my stability, and confidence. In other words, I'm willing to take on a little stronger wind with them. It's always a trade-off when it comes to sailing, so it seems. By the way, those outriggers are a good product--easy to mount and hold up well.


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 Post subject: Nice to know...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:54 pm 
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...about your success with the same outrigger system that I just bought for my Mirage Sport. UPS just delivered it today in fact, so I'm looking forward to installing. I'll be very happy to know I can use more wind power with confidence with this system. Do you have yours on a Mirage Sport or Outback? Any chance you could post a picture of two of how they look on yours? I'm hoping I can find just the right spot on my Sport to install those brackets for the system.

Thanks,
Steve
San Diego

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:49 am 
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Where did you get your outriggers and how do they mount to the hull?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:01 am 
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Location: San Diego
I got these outriggers from here:

http://www.canoegear.com/catalog/home.php?cat=94

They just arrived yesterday and they look really high-quality. They mount using provided brackets that need to be screwed in to the hull. The bottom picture shows this.

I may need to find some help on how to screw the brackets on without doing any damage. Spring Creek provided special screws with rubber bushings used for kayaks like the Mirage Sport when you can't access the inside of the shell, but I'm still not sure how big to srill the hole, etc. [/img]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:59 am 
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I see no reason why outriggers would be expected to increase the speed at all. In fact, I would expect just the opposite--the outriggers would add a certain amount of drag due to friction with the water, and would be expected to slow the rig down a little. This would be especially true while sailing close-hauled with the outriggers dipping below the water surface rather than skimming along on the surface. I have sailed my Outback both with and without outriggers, and did not notice any difference in speed just eyeballing it. However, one would probably need a GPS setup in order to address specifically this question. Any takers??

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:14 pm 
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I'm unable to send photos, but my outriggers are mounted as it appears to be depicted in the top two photos of your posting. I have an outback, by the way. Appalach seems to agree with me about the outriggers--they do add drag. When I use to sail without them, it appeared to me that I could make more speed, however, I was constantly having to ease the mainsheet to avoid capsizing (at least it felt that way) and slack off. Now I need to make fewer adjustments, and though I may be traveling slower in reality, I make steadier headway. In the end, whatever makes you the most comfortable with your yak, and maximizes your ability, works.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:10 pm 
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Yep--I would have to agree with tworavens on all counts. Outriggers would be expected to slow you down a tad due to drag. However, when sailing with them my stability is enhanced and I don't have to slack off on the main sheet as much to avoid capsizing (or at least the feeling that I might capsize). Also I can sail close-hauled for longer periods with the outriggers, so that alone would probably get me from point A to point B in a shorter amount of time, which would probably more than compensate for the increased drag, although my actual speed would probably be less with the outriggers. Sooo-it's probably a wash. Now, who has a GPS to test all these great hypotheses we're tossing around here...?

BTW, here is my Outback rigged for sailing on 4 July. Just 6 days later there was 10 feet of water over this exact spot when the storm surge from Hurricane Dennis devastated Shell Point and the surrounding coastal communities.

Image

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 Post subject: What a rush
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:26 pm 
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OK, I took my Mirage Sport into San Diego's Mission Bay, put on my new Sprink Creek outriggers (I merely set the crossbar snug behind the seat in the front of the luggage area and lashed it down tight with the black built-in bungee cord back there, foregoing the bolted-on bracket method because I just wanted to test it first. I hoisted the Hobie sail...and was immediately off and running with the big boys (lots of Hobie Cats, windsurfers and full-size sailboats)! I wasn't going quite as fast as them, but I was zooming by all the other paddlers without using the pedal drive or my oar -- just sail power. I could see the outrigger pontoons skimming through the water, felt the kayak occasisonally lean heavy to either side but not roll over, and the speed on this kayak under nothing but wind power felt great! The wind was pretty nice -- nice enough to capsize a Hobie Cat near me, but my outriggers kept me upright the whole time. I even stood up and faked like I was one of the windsurfers, but so many people started staring at me that I got self-conscious and resumed my seated position.

Honestly, I haven't had that much fun sailing something of my own since I sold my 25' foot Catalina about 6 years ago.

Can't wait to sail my Sport in the ocean just off the coast here.

I was amazed that the outriggers worked so well with just my lame lashing method connecting them to the Sport.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:05 am 
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WTG dansker--that is awesome! I'm surprised as well that your jury rig lashing worked so well.

Can you post some pics of your rig with the outriggers mounted? The Sport can't use the RAM mounts that I used for my OB outriggers since the interior of the hull is not accessible for mounting the hardware. I would like to find an outrigger setup for my wife's Sport too since she has wanted to be able to sail. Looks like I need to check out the Spring Creek rig. Thanks for the info.
Dick

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:33 pm 
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I'll try to take a picture of my lashing method next time I have it set up -- but it's really simple -- I just unclipped the two ends of the bungee, wrapped each end cross-wise two or three times around each side of the cross bar, and re-clipped them. It does stretch the bungee some, and it's
not as solid as using the bolt-on mounts, but it worked for my tests.

I told Spring Creek that I had a Sport and so couldn't access inside the hull to bolt anything on. They said no problem and sent me special screws that come with rubber "bushings". I need to get some advice on how to use them, though -- apparently you drill holes big enough for the bushings, insert them, then the screws, and it holds in place, though I'm not sure how.

Anyway, today for test two I took my Sport into the ocean off San Diego -- only once did I feel I almost lost control -- when a huge swell came up behind me and lifted my whole kayak -- outriggers and all -- up and sideways. But it settled back down and I stayed upright. With those outriggers on I think it'd be hard to capsize even if you TRIED to.

I got plenty of compliments on my pumped up Sport, from salboat and powerbaot people. One fellow kayaker busy paddling did say to me, "Isn't that cheating?"

I'm still amazed that my kayak can be propelled with not one, not two, but THREE all-natural, non-polluting energy modes.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:06 pm 
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dansker,
Sounds like they might have sent you some well nuts. These are commonly used when beneath-hull access is NA. As you tighten the screw, the well nuts expand to wedge the screw in place. You can see some of the different types on this page from the KFS online catalog.

http://www.kayakfishingstuff.com/Mercha ... _Code=fstn[/url][/list]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:27 pm 
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With regard to using outriggers, how should they sit to the water? On a calm "sea" should they even be touching the water, just skimming it, or down in the water a bit?

I'm guessing that they should just lightly skim the water's surface when the boat is level and under power. And that any lean will push one or the other into the water. Or maybe they should be set just an inch of so out of the water so that under power and calm water they don't even touch?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:54 pm 
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Yeah Tom--either way should work. I usually let mine float right at the surface for normal pedal/paddling. For sailing, I try to start with both sets of buoys about an inch or two above the surface to allow for a certain amount of "lean" while sailing close-hauled.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:48 am 
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Thanks, that was my assumption. I may have to try this for sailing.


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