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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:37 pm 
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
Looks like the Adventure has been renamed the Revolution16 and the new AI hull has followed the TI, being only available as a Trimaran, no kayak only hull.
http://www.hobiecat.com/mirage/mirage-revolution-16/
What's disappointing is that it looks like the Daggerboard slot has been removed. :(
A backward step ...not happy Hobie! Having a DB made the Adventure the best sailing kayak available.
The handles are still there which is good (they have disappeared it seems on the AI) but I hope something has been done to stop the water funnelling in?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:15 pm 
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What a disappointment. I'm really surprised. The sail kit and daggerboard are a big part of why I love my adventure.

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2011 Hobie Mirage Adventure
Caribbean Blue
ST Turbo Fins, Sail Kit, Sailing Rudder, SideKick Ama Kit, Daggerboard, iComfort Seat Pad, GoPro Hero3+

2007 Hobie Getaway
Carnai Trailer, Wings, SLO Wing Covers, SLO FWD Tramp, Cheata Mount, Suzuki DF2.5


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:26 pm 
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Location: Auckland NZ
I couldn't agree more!

I have an AI but I never use it as an AI these days because it is so much more fun sailing it as a kayak... but the thing that makes it work as a sailing kayak is the daggerboard: without this the boat - like all the other non-daggerboard Hobies - has no real upwind capability and can be quite unstable dead downwind.

So I totally agree - this seems to me to be a very backwards step and I am not sure why Hobie would make it (unless to coerce people who want a sailing kayak with a daggerboard to stump up for an AI)... and I guess that it will mean that Hobie will now have two different hull moulds and products to administer - one with and one without the daggerboard...

:cry: :cry: :cry:


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:52 am 
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Stobbo:
I'm not sure I agree with what your saying, in my opinion the mirage drive with either the pedals pointed down or pedaling lightly accomplishes the same purpose as a dagger board. I have very little difficulty sailing and pedaling up wind with the revo, oasis, or the TI (in kayak mode). I suspect where most go wrong with Hobie mirage kayaks is for some strange reason they try to pull their mirage drives out when sailing or trying to sail, this defeats the purpose of the whole design. The thing is not a sunfish or a laser and shouldn't be treated as such. It's a mirage drive pedal boat, not a pure sailboat (never will be).
All mirage kayaks (including the TI) are purpose designed around the mirage pedal drive system. The Hobie sail kit is designed to work in conjunction with the pedal drive system. Yes you can remove the mirage put the plug in and sail, but why would anyone want to do that, it kind of defeats the purpose of the entire design ( everything was designed from the ground up to work together).
With the adventure and the TI because they are tri's and have huge sail area in comparison, just the mirage drive alone does not provide enough skeg so the daggerboard and centerboard were added.
I personally have not sailed an AI in kayak mode, but have sailed my TI in kayak mode and found the mirage drive gives me sufficient skeg to sail upwind with a smaller sail (my kayak sail is a 33 sq ft wing sail for my TI). I always found that not using the mirage (that's why it's there) kind of defeats the purpose of owning a mirage kayak (might as well just get a sunfish).
Of course all this is just my opinion.
Ever since getting into mirage boats I alway pedal 100 percent of the time regardless of the conditions (even with the TI in full sailing mode), this is what sets Hobie mirage boats apart from everything else out there, I can't for the life of me figure out why 90% of the mirage kayak sailers that I see as soon as they put the sail up they stop pedaling completely, and many I see remove their mirage drives (a misdemeanor in some states I think (lol)) thinking they are a real sail boat with a sail, but it will never be, the mirage is just too integrated into the basic design to do otherwise in my opinion, as everyone knows I got a whole lot of sailing miles on these boats (many models) and found the basic theme to be the same with all of them (they all suck as pure sailboats with the mirage drives removed, or not used while sailing, not really their purpose).
Personally we have had 7 mirage kayaks since 2007 with literally thousands of sailing mile on most of them, I don't recall ever taking any of our mirage kayaks out in the water without the sail kit strapped to the side of the boat, always if there is any wind at all that we can use, we put the sails up. Literally we are out there every single weekend all year round on our kayaks (mostly the TI only these days though), once we got the TI we never used our oasis and revo's anymore so we ended up selling them (they sat in the garage a year or two unused). Even just kayak mode only my wife much prefers the TI for doing rivers in tandem ( I suspect the reason being she likes to ride in the back and fake pedals, so I do all the work, actually I don't mind I enjoy the company, and with the TI one person pedaling propels the boat just fine, on long river trips we take turns pedaling, which helps a lot (we couldn't do that with our oasis, we both had to pedal to maintain speed), the TI as a kayak is very fast, faster than any other model.
I understand what you like (sailing your AI in kayak mode, I like to do the same with our TI (which in my mind is a better more modern design, now the AI is being upgraded to similar ( a good thing I think))), I suspect if you were to get the new model AI with the integrated center board, you will be just as happy, and your butt will remain dry to boot as long as you don't have to pick it up by the handles they are apparently gone now).
Of course this is all just my opinion.
Bob


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:28 am 
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I realise my set up is somewhat unusual, but fitting a 35 sq ft sail in Adventure mode demonstrated to me beyond doubt that the AI daggerboard is much more effective in this mode than the mirage drives when sailing to windward or even just staying right way up. My AI set up up like I have it is unmanageable when sailing in any kind of wind with just the mirage drives locked in the down position., It's also fast and exciting enough in 10 to 15 knot winds with the board down that the difference in speed pulling the mirage drive is very noticeable, as well as rendering them redundant in such situations (not to mention that it's a tad hard to peddle when you're sitting where the rear aka used to be and leaning out so far your head is almost in the water :-) Just my 2 bits from my experience

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:27 pm 
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If you want a dagger board for your new Revo16, you could add the KayakSailor sail.

https://kayaksailor.com/


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:54 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:25 pm
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
I'm at a loss to understand why Hobie have dumbed down their best sailing kayak by dropping the daggerboard slot. :?

Was it a marketing decision?

This most versatile of kayaks is now considerably less versatile.
Sure there are work arounds for adding a daggerboard but why change something that worked so well?

I'm very disappointed with this change. :(


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:03 am 
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fusioneng wrote:
Stobbo:
...I suspect where most go wrong with Hobie mirage kayaks is for some strange reason they try to pull their mirage drives out when sailing or trying to sail, this defeats the purpose of the whole design. The thing is not a sunfish or a laser and shouldn't be treated as such. It's a mirage drive pedal boat, not a pure sailboat (never will be).

I personally have not sailed an AI in kayak mode, but have sailed my TI in kayak mode and found the mirage drive gives me sufficient skeg to sail upwind with a smaller sail (my kayak sail is a 33 sq ft wing sail for my TI). I always found that not using the mirage (that's why it's there) kind of defeats the purpose of owning a mirage kayak (might as well just get a sunfish).
Of course all this is just my opinion.
Bob


Bob,
I'm sure I'm not agreeing with what you are saying.
I'm wondering whether the fumes from your twin outboards have clouded your judgement? :wink:
To suggest that 'removing the drives is wrong' and 'strange' is an ill-informed comment. It's obvious you have never sailed the Adventure otherwise I'm sure you would come to a different conclusion.
You seem to be hooked on 'motor' sailing, either with the outboards or just the Miragedrive, but the Adventure can be very successful in 'pure' sailing where it is just the wind that gets you from A to B.
In the right conditions (10+ knot winds) the Adventure with the standard Hobie sail and daggerboard makes a great sailing boat that can sail very well without the Miragedrive.
Speeds of around 4-6 knots are easily possible in 10-15 knot winds ,depending on surface conditions. According to my GPS I have hit just under 7 knots at times and have no trouble averaging around 4-5 knots ...which is faster than I can pedal/paddle. The trouble with the standard sail is that the mast can get a severe wobble at wind speeds of +12 knots and the sail needs to be furled. As a guide I generally furl to the tell tales at 15 knots and to the 'H' in Hobie at 20 knots. At 25 knots I furl to the 'I'. The Adventure is capable of higher speeds if the mast were stayed but it's difficult to stay the mast and keep the furling. Possible I know (I'm well aware of your excellent mast topper) but I like to keep it simple.
BTW-The Daggerboard is far superior to the Miragedrive in upwind sailing and adds stability on other sailing points, especially downwind. That's why I'm so disappointed that Hobie have decided to drop the Db slot! :evil:

PS: I agree with all that Diver, Stobbo and Simon have posted.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:46 am 
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Stringy:
Ok I'll retract my statement, you are correct I have never sailed an adventure in kayak mode, which is a much larger boat than our revo's were ( the vast majority of our kayak sailing experience was on our revo's with the standard Hobie kayak sail), which is probably a different animal. Also on our TI in kayak mode we use our wing sail mostly with a 50 lb weighted keel so it's not a fair comparison at all.
I agree with you now that removing the dagger board slot from the revo 16 actually cost Hobie more to remove than what the benefit would have been especially since it had already had been developed and perfected. All the costs in molds had already been spent, it would have meant nothing to them to keep it going. Let's hope they just inserted the mold vs mowing that feature out of the mold, this would mean they could bring it back if enough people ask for it. Hobie is pretty good at listening to feedback.
I think you are correct about my judgement being clouded about pure sailing, as I didn't come from that background and am a former powerboat racer so I never got into the sailing craze in the 70's, and have always been more into powerboating but can no longer afford that expensive hobby. I would have no interest whatsoever in owning a 40 ft sailboat and have no interest in getting into one design racing like with h16's, lasers, and sunfish. It's just not my thing and never will be. I actually owned a sunfish for a couple summers when I was a teenager, we spent most summers on the Mississippi with my parents big cabin cruiser, I got bored with the sunfish quickly and got way more into racing 3 point hydroplanes, very fast go karts, then eventually cars (mostly Porsches and Camero's). Yes I'll admit I was a motor head when I was a tool and die apprentice at Honeywell I would do 12 grand hole shots with my 69 Z28 with 15 inch wrinkle wall drags slicks every day after work in front of the plant till I got caught pulling wheelies and didn't get to drive for a long time (lol).

I suspect how far you live from the water is also a big factor, I spent most of my life in the Midwest and it was a 2 1/2 hr drive to get to the Mississippi for us and didn't think about boating much at all till we moved to Florida in 2007 and live 10 minutes from the ocean and can go out all year round. My second wife who is native Floridian convinced me to move down here and got me into kayaking after selling her sea ray which we could no longer afford to keep up.
So for the record I'm a non sailer, but have found the TI to fit our desired lifestyle very well without breaking the bank.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:47 am 
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A former powerboater Bob?
I never would have guessed! :lol:
Image
That explains a lot!
I've found your insights into the molding process fascinating.
It's sounding more like it was a marketing decision to drop the daggerboard slot than anything else. :(


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:17 am 
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Location: Naples, Italy
Hi Stringy,
I've checked and a one inch mast will still fit inside the standard Hobie Kayak sail. This might solve your problem of the mast wobbling :-)
You'd need to modify your adaptor for your AI but I'm sure this wouldn't be a big deal for you
Ideally you'd use a 2 part mast with telescoping tubes of 1" and 7/8", and therein lies the problem outside the USA: non-metric 0.058" wall thickness tubing is the only tubing that telescopes well without too much slack!
I’m waiting for some kind soul to bring me over a 6 foot length of 1 inch tubing next time they visit :-)

stringy wrote:

The trouble with the standard sail is that the mast can get a severe wobble at wind speeds of +12 knots and the sail needs to be furled. As a guide I generally furl to the tell tales at 15 knots and to the 'H' in Hobie at 20 knots. At 25 knots I furl to the 'I'. The Adventure is capable of higher speeds if the mast were stayed but it's difficult to stay the mast and keep the furling

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:13 pm 
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On a lot of my rigging for kayaks I ended up using those painter extension poles you get at the hardware store. I take them apart and use the aluminum tubing. I found one size that fits over the Hobie mast nicely and can still be slid inside the Hobie standard kayak sail. Near the bottom of the mast (where it fits into the hull, I slid fiberglass rod about a foot in to keep the mast from bending at the bottom. Of course I had to remove the bungy that goes up the center if the mast, and add a small screw to hold the mast halves together.

Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:57 pm 
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Both good ideas Simon and Bob. 8)
I guess I've never bothered trying to improve mast stability because I'm happy with the 4-5knots I can get using the standard Hobie setup.
I have thought about it though, especially when the winds are less than 10 knots. There is a sail available on eBay that's also 35sq/ft, which is why I've followed your mods with interest Simon.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Kayak-Sail-f ... 70d&_uhb=1


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:40 pm 
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That sail looks interesting, Stringy. Very much like an intermediate Hobie boomless square topped sail with a flexible mast, so less weight aloft than my set up, albeit with less control over sail shape. As it still apparently fits in the standard Hobie kayak, I'm curious to know what the mast is made of and what diameter it is (hopefully they' e ditched the plastic base tube to enable them to up the diameter a bit)

You'd think there'd be someone on the forum who's tried it, but I say go for it! :-)

To be honest, in light airs I'd like an even bigger sail, but weight aloft would be an issue for me in boat chop and following seas (I'm hoping to lower my sail by shortening my mast a bit soon, once I've worked out how low I think it can go)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:53 pm 
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In response to the observations about my comments on the loss of the daggerboard and its desirability for sailing.

Preface: each to their own.

In my experience none of the Hobies I have sailed in perform at all well upwind without a daggerboard (I include Outback, Adventure, AI, Oasis, Outfitter) - simply put, the daggerboard transforms upwind performance. Sure, you can just about get upwind in ideal conditions with just the mirage drive fins, but add any sort of side-on waves or current or try it when conditions aren't perfect and the performance, without a daggerboard, is lamentable compared to the performance with.

As to removing the mirage drive for sailing - well I do this all the time because it too creates a marked improvement in sailing performance i.e. Speed. When I do this I always replace the drive with the plug and the result is that speed increases due, I confidently believe, to the reduced underwater drag associated with trailing the mirage drive through the water. The speed you get out of these boats is not great and nothing like the AI or TI, but once you are wired in to sailing them you will notice that the speed with the drive pulled and the plug in place is improved.

Whether this somehow goes against the design philosophy of the boat seems a bit of a stretch - the boat, the drive, the sail and the plug were all designed to work together and to perform a particular function and if you can get better performance by being selective about when & how you use these components of the 'system' that just seems like common sense to me.

As to preferring to sail the new AI over a kayak with a daggerboard: I don't think so. I far prefer sailing the kayak and I am very disappointed that Hobie has taken this retrograde step of removing it from the kayak product line.

For me the advantages of the AI (speed and stability) are outweighed by its disadvantages (cost, storage/transport, complexity, atrociously wet ride, difficult to fish from and an uninspiring sailing experience to boot) and I will not be stumping up to buy an AI just to get a kayak with a daggerboard (I am already thinking about buying a secondhand or end of line Adventure with a daggerboard to insulate myself from any replacement with a non-daggerboard Hull in the future). Each to their own, of course but my AI amas and akas, mast and sail have been hanging in my garage for years simply because the kayak sailing experience is soooo much more enjoyable for me.


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