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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:03 am 
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Has anybody made a second emergency rudder or a second steering system to add to sail standard steering system to solve troubles when rudder pin breaks?
Thanks for your ideas and advice. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:59 am 
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Location: Sarasota FL
I don't sail my kayak, but I have broken a rudder pin while out to sea.
I just used my paddle as a rudder, no problem.
(And now I carry a kit that contains both a rudder pin, and extra line in case I break a line).


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:12 am 
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Hi sunday,
when you sail, usually the sea is not calm. You sail with wind and slight sea.
In the event of unexpected weather (wind speed up 15 knots, moderate sea, chops, etc.) and rudder PIN breaking, I think it could be very hard (or impossible) being able to get home.
Rudder PIN is hard to replace and fit from onboard; it could be dangerous to replace it swimming in the water.
Fitting a telescopic oar (not a paddle) on the left side of Hobie Oasis stern could be a good way to solve this problem: a telescopic fixed oar as auxiliary rudder. I think this could be better than using a paddle as emergency rudder.

What do you think about?

Has anybody fixed a telescopic oar, on the left side of Hobie Oasis stern, as auxiliary rudder?
Thanks all for your advice :) .


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:31 am 
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My personal belief is that you're worrying about something that likely won't be a problem. I've broken a rudder pin on my Adventure Island on Lake Ontario in good wind and waves, and I had no trouble getting home.

If you're planning for an emergency, you might be better off to pack a wetsuit or something and change the rudder pin at sea. It's not impossible to do.

I know that a lot of people worry about rudder pins, but the fact is that for thousands of years people have been taking less sea worthy kayaks out on the water with no rudder at all. These boats are very steerable with a paddle, or even by dragging your arms in the water on either side while pedaling, to create resistance, and turn in that direction.

If you're out in conditions where losing a rudder pin would be catastrophic, it's best to stay closer to shore. But I do believe that people are over-concerned about the safety of these boats with a broken rudder pin.

To each their own, I'm not telling you that I'm right, and you're wrong. But before you go about modifying the boat to add weight or complexity, try pulling up your rudder and using a paddle. Perhaps knowing how to handle the boat before you have a broken rudder pin will teach you the skills and techniques to use if a pin breaks?

The Oasis sail is not a big sail at all, you might be surprised at how much control you actually have. And if that sail does overpower you, using the mirage drive is a very safe option, that will work just fine.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:04 am 
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:) Hi augag, I respect your point of view and I like listening it.
However, I am not in accord with you.
Hobie Oasis, Tandem Island are not good paddlers without a rudder.
With hands, you steer a seakayak, not a Mirage-drive tandem Kayak without a rudder or without an oar as rudder. These tandem mirage-drive kayaks have no tracking ability without a rudder or an oar as rudder, expecially if you are solo sailing and rudder PIN breaks in rough waters or surf areas with winds up 15-20 knots. The most we are not superman :) .


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:16 am 
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Location: Sarasota FL
The key here is "What would you do in an emergency?"
I would, and have simply used my paddle as a rudder (just like one does in a canoe, or mirage-less and rudder-less kayak). Not great, but gets you back home.

re: breaking pins....
If you are worried about breaking a pin in rough seas, consider coming up with a stainless steel pin to replace the plastic one. The plastic pin is designed to sheer first in order to save the rudder system.

POV:
If you're worried about having to "get into the water", then you probably shouldn't be out on the open sea in a kayak, -sail or no sail. I've done some pretty rough seas and once even tied my bowline to my ankle just in case, but those were not fun trips, nor something I go looking for. Even in calm waters, its a good idea to discuss and practice "reboarding" techniques with anyone you are taking with you.

I have crawled back in rolling seas to clear a sea-weed fouled-rudder. Didn't fall off, so replacing a pin in flight shouldn't be that hard. Might depend on your agility or that cooler of beer strapped between you and the rudder. 8)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:33 am 
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:) Hi Sunday,
you prefer swimming, replacing pin or coming back using a paddle as a rudder. I'd prefer coming back using an auxiliary fixed rudder, without stress or swimming to replace the pin in the water.

I have opened this topic to listen to creative and propositive ideas, too.
Thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:46 pm 
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Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
Oasisman,
I take it you have an Oasis?
Have you ever tried steering it with the rudder up and using a paddle as the rudder, from the rear seat? I'd be surprised if you couldn't get back to shore easily.
I have broken rudder pins on my AI. Once I pedaled 2 km back to shore across a 20+ knot southerly and had no problems steering with the paddle. I have also sailed my TI in very shallow water (too shallow for the rudder/daggerboard) and was able to steer using just the paddle.
The great benefit of the miragedrive is the torque they generate. When pedaling I find you only need to use the paddle occasionally to correct course.
If you do a search for 'rudder pin' you will find a lot of info, especially on the AI/TI forums. Tonystott has come up with an innovative back up rudder line here: viewtopic.php?f=71&t=44839&p=190255


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:20 pm 
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oasisman wrote:
:) Hi augag, I respect your point of view and I like listening it.
However, I am not in accord with you.
Hobie Oasis, Tandem Island are not good paddlers without a rudder.
With hands, you steer a seakayak, not a Mirage-drive tandem Kayak without a rudder or without an oar as rudder. These tandem mirage-drive kayaks have no tracking ability without a rudder or an oar as rudder, expecially if you are solo sailing and rudder PIN breaks in rough waters or surf areas with winds up 15-20 knots. The most we are not superman :) .


I respect your point of view as well, and if it makes you more comfortable to have a solution thought out, I won't try to stop you. All I'm trying to say is that, you might be surprised at how easy it is. The size of the rudder on the Oasis is actually a VERY small rudder. Seeing it next to my Bravo's rudder, it looks like a toy. The boat doesn't need much to steer when everything is working fine, and you might be surprised at how little it needs to steer if the pin breaks. But again, if you're more comfortable, or feel safer having an alternate plan, I encourage you to investigate it. That's how some of the best improvements have been developed for these boats.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:48 am 
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Hi stringy and augaug,
I am glad to listen to the words of expert kayakers and sailors like you: your words reassure me :).

Yes stringy, I am an owner of the last Hobie Oasis model: I, usually, solo sail Oasis with standard sail (I replaced standard mast with a reinforced and lighter carbon mast, added furling system and polyethylene outtriggers) and another sail added on the bow. I am using a windsurf centerboard into the forward drive-well, too: thanks for your centerboard advice by pm.

Now, my next purpose is fitting an emergency telescopic oar at left side of the stern, as second emergency auxiliary rudder. Probably, this is excessive for the most, but I like this idea.
The reason is the following:
in the topicview you have linked, titled "Emergency Steering" (such as in another topic titled "Motor sailing the Tandem Island"), you can see that all good ideas realized by tonystott or proposed by tomray solve only the case of internal steering control line breaking (if I understand well).
Tonystott has realized a good external steering line, dogslife too.
Tomray thought is another good solution: "(...) just a tab sticking out one side of the rudder and a long stick attached to it (...)".
However, these good ideas don't solve (I believe) the case of rudder PIN breaking.

My simple idea should solve this problem, too: rudder PIN breaking and/or internal steering line breaking.

This is the reason for which I like title this topic "second emergency auxiliary rudder" and not "What would you do in an emergency?", such as proposed by sunday: I am not interested to use a hand, an arm or a paddle as a rudder, such as all expert kayakers do, neither I am interested to solve only a steering line breaking problem.
I am interested to solve both problems by one simple comfortable solution.

I like receive advice about a good mounting system of my idea, please.
Thanks.

Hi all :),
oasisman


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:55 pm 
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I broke a rudder assembly off a TI once and managed to sail about three miles back to the launch with the paddle as my rudder. Put your rudder up sometime when you're out and give it a try. It works well.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:01 pm 
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I suffered rudder failur a couple miles out into a harbor. All of a sudden the steering got sluggish then totally unresponsive . I turn around to see my rudder planing horizontally on the water broken clear of the mounting bolts (this is my own craft not an AI) . The upshot of all this is that if you have never steered a sailing craft with an oar or anyothe drag or lift producing thing not designed for it you may be in for a shock. Oh I tried like hell and that beast didn't care. My advice here is what ever repair or method or auxiliary you intend be completely sure it works - and works in conditions strong enough to destroy a rudder or rudder pin.

Another point and really really critical...

If you EVER intend to get out of the seat, and move to the rear or where ever a repair is needed TETHER yourself. If you flip of the tramp or stern or aka in a repair wind and waves can EASILY send it off faster than you can swim and being three hulls, it won't flip anytime soon allowing a catch up swim.

My belief is anytime a crossing that may have you miles offshore, a tether should be considered, or atleast somewhere on the craft.

Just my .02


Pete


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:34 am 
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Bcastile wrote:
I broke a rudder assembly off a TI once and managed to sail about three miles back to the launch with the paddle as my rudder. Put your rudder up sometime when you're out and give it a try. It works well.


I understand what you say and I also can be in accord with you: your words reassure me.
However, there are other owners of Hobie Tandem Island that have made different solutions.
As I have said, I am not interested to use a paddle as a rudder. I have given it a try and it is a poor rudder according to what I need. I use a centerboard into the forward drive-well and I sit down near the stern when I sail with two sails.
I wish have a comfortable auxiliary telescopic oar fixed on the left side of my Hobie Oasis stern to sail very well in the event of internal rudder line (or rudder pin) breaking, too. This is, perhaps, just my need.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:10 am 
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Hi Pete :),
I am in accord with you, at all.
Thank you very much for your advice.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:03 pm 
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Thanks.

I cant think of anything more damning or wrenching then watching helplessly while your swift craft is sailing hopelessly out of reach. Reminds me of that flick with that couple that goes out scubadiving in mexico and the boat leaves them behind by mistake and they re bobbing around till nature rings the dinner bell.

Pete


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