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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:45 am 
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I have been kayaking out of Santa Barbara harbour. I want to go up and down the coast (maybe 2 to 10 miles?). I see sailboats do this and i want too as well. However, I have not yet gone very far because getting upwind is hard to do (especially by yourself). I have a 2013 oasis. I do have the sailing kit but have not tried it yet. I was told it won't work upwind which is exactly what i need. Is this true? Can an unexperienced sailor get it to go upwind? Slowly would be ok even 1mph or 0.5mph? I have heard that the adventure is better because you can add a daggerboard which helps going upwind. I was thinking about adding the adventure daggerboard to the front oasis mirage drive cassete plug ( http://www.austinkayak.com/products/482 ... -Plug.html) and I can still peddle from the back. Will this significantly help me do what i want to do (go upwind for miles)? If so how would I go about doing this? User stringy talks about it briefly in this thread viewtopic.php?f=32&t=3176&start=15 but his pictures no longer work. Thank you!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:08 pm 
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I have a 2013 oasis, but mainly use for fishing. Have you ever tried using the front mirage drive as a daggerboard, keeping the fins vertical? Heard it helped other oasis owners keep the bow down and minimize slapping. Maybe worth a shot. Good luck!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:20 am 
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Location: Portland, Texas
I've been sailing my Oasis (a 2010 model) since I bought it new. I changed the fins out fairly early to the ST's as the standards allowed way too much side-slip on anything other than a downwind run. When I'm alone and sailing I usually put the cassette in the front drive opening and just use the fins as my center-board on the rear opening. The boat can be sailed upwind but not as close as maybe a Sunfish, Laser etc. Those boats can easily be sailed up to 45 degrees off the wind whereas the Oasis can be brought up to about 50 degrees at best. The problem of putting a centerboard in front of the mast by using the front drive opening is that it will seriously disrupt the ability to control the direction of the boat. Sailboats normally keep the center board (the center of lateral resistance) behind the mast for this purpose. The centerboard (or in this case vertical flippers) acts like a pivot point between the force on the mast trying to push the boat away from the wind and the rudder which keeps the boat directed towards the wind at the discretion of the helmsman. I use ballast in the front to keep the bow down when sailing alone. These boats can be sailed upwind but just not as close to the wind as a pure sailboat. In your case I wouldn't let this stop you from trying. With a little practice you should do just fine. By the way these boats can do something most sail craft can't. They can be powered through a tack with the peddle system. That can put them at an advantage to your average sailboat. Enjoy your boat, it will do more things and bring you more places than your average small boat. 8)

_________________
Roger
2010 Oasis
Lucie Belle


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:52 pm 
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acousticpharm wrote:
I have a 2013 oasis. I do have the sailing kit but have not tried it yet. I was told it won't work upwind which is exactly what i need. Is this true?
No. All the Mirage Drive kayaks can be sailed upwind using the fins (moving or static and down) as a substitute daggerboard.
Quote:
Can an unexperienced sailor get it to go upwind?
The more you practice sailing the better you'll get; technique is an important element!
Quote:
I was thinking about adding the adventure daggerboard to the front oasis mirage drive cassete plug ( http://www.austinkayak.com/products/482 ... -Plug.html) and I can still peddle from the back. Will this significantly help me do what i want to do (go upwind for miles)? If so how would I go about doing this?Slowly would be ok even 1mph or 0.5mph? I have heard that the adventure is better because you can add a daggerboard which helps going upwind. User stringy talks about it briefly in this thread viewtopic.php?f=32&t=3176&start=15 but his pictures no longer work.
It will improve upwind efficiency. PM stringy and maybe he will send you some pics of the building process -- he did a beautiful job and used it on a frequent basis until he got his AI. Unfortunately the host sites tend to remove the pics after awhile, rendering some of these How-Tos" less useful.

Keep in mind, you can sail upwind in the Oasis with fins down -- turbos are best however. Did you see stringy's fin lock? viewtopic.php?f=32&t=10831&p=57071

It turns out that as you pedal and the fins sweep under the boat, this gives you a "daggerboard effect" -- you can go upwind very effectively by sailing while pedaling easily, and even get some very close angles to the wind using this hybrid technique. Of course, you can also pedal straight upwind just about as fast (slower speed but less distance). :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:59 pm 
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Not to hijack the thread, but if one were to convert a drive-plug into a daggerboard, what would be a good material and length? Same length or longer than the turbofins?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:35 pm 
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The existing daggerboard would make a good template. You'd want to incorporate some sort of kick-up feature (as the Hobie version does) in case it hits something. You can use plywood -- it shapes easily and can be glassed or sealed.8)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:08 pm 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
acousticpharm :
I owned an Oasis for quite a while and sailed the heck out of it. I recommend you don't put a daggerboard into the front mirage slot, I tried something like that and it didn't help. The best thing you can do if you sail from the back seat (best place to sail an Oasis from) is get turbo fins (the big fins) for your mirage drive. If you are out solo it is a very good idea to add some ballast up near the front of the boat also, (to keep the bow down when sailing solo). I used one of those collapsible water jugs like they use in camping and placed it in the front hatch or near the front seat. The ballast helps keep the wind from blowing the boat sideways when the bow is sticking up the air (just empty it when your done, and stow inside the hull for next time)).

Also make sure you buy the optional sailing rudder (from Hobie), they are inexpensive and a must with an Oasis (you can probably get buy without the sailing rudder on a smaller and shorter Revo, but for sure you need it with the Oasis (made a huge difference on mine)).

We had furlers (Hobie sells them now) on all of our sails and always took the sails along with us no matter the conditions, if we weren't using the sail we would just keep it strapped to the side of the boat (where the paddle is held on, we very seldom ever used our paddles anyway so we usually just carried one paddle, if we both wanted to paddle we would break it in half and each use half (like when going through mangrove tunnels or shooting rapids).

Hobie Kayak sailing is a little different from regular sailing because of the mirage pedal drive, you don't ever want to take the mirage drive out when sailing, I pedal 100% of the time even when I'm sailing, you don't have to pedal fiercely and get all tired out, just a steady pace, once you get used to pedaling it's second nature, once you build up your muscles a little (after a few outings) you should be able to pedal at a leisurely pace for 10 hours, then get up and do it all over again the next day, both my wife and I could do that after the 3rd or 4th adventure (we traveled all over the country for a few year with kayaks on the roof and trailer in tow and sailed any body of water we could find, we had a blast, we wore out two Yukon Denali's doing that.
If you are pedaling lightly you should be able to point very close to the wind (much higher than a laser or sunfish can point) about 20-25 degrees off the wind as long as you keep pedaling, as soon as you stop pedaling you will round up and stop, you have to control the rudder carefully. Don't try to sail the Oasis like you would sail a regular sailboat, your Oasis is much more versatile than that, exploit it's design strengths, rather than try to emulate some old days gone by sailing techniques (I'm an old Sunfish sailer).

The balance thing (keeping the boat balanced without having to think about it) is something you just get used to after a few outings, if you have been kayaking a while then you already have it.

Another pointer is always "I mean ALWAYS" keep the sail control line loosely held in your hand (never cleat it), that's you last defense against getting tipped over, if a gust comes just release the pressure off the sail (you need to do this quickly or suffer the consequences ( LOL). This now brings up another really strong suggestion, make sure you practice tipping over and getting back on board, because when sailing you will tip over once in a while. You need to know how to get back on board your kayak when in the water, this seems silly, but neither me or my wife could get back on board our Oasis without lots of practice, we practiced in our pool and got the technique down, there are quite a few threads on the forum with good suggestions on how to get back on your kayak in the event of a tip over (something everyone should know how to do....).

If the wind kicks up and you have the furler installed if you furl the sail in a few turns, you can continue to sail.

On most sail boats the best point of sail is with the wind at 90 degrees (called a reach), your better off pointing higher into the wind and pedaling (less likely to tip over).
The Hobie Mirage kayak does not sail like any other small sailboat (because of the mirage drives), the design is a complete package with the boat and the sail specifically designed for use with mirage drives, I know of nothing out there better designed for the purpose of kayak sailing, Hobie really did their homework.
Good luck
Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:36 pm 
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X2! This is 100% excellent advice. Like fusioneng, stringy is quite an innovator -- his daggerboard was more useful with his customized twin sail Oasis (the center of lateral resistance was more appropriately applicable to a front cockpit application). You can see it here:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=8346&p=41654&hilit=#p41654 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:02 am 
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Location: Sarasota,Key West FL
Roadrunner:
Wow that's a blast from the past, here is a pic of my old Oasis from about the same timeframe (2007). A few years later Stringy and I both agreed that if we had both met earlier (on the forum) we would have both saved a lot of money since we were both running parallel paths (LOL)

The dagger board like thing I mentioned above was that lead daggerboard in the picture that mounted in front of the sail (under the front seat below the boat). It worked great for stabilizing the boat making it impossible to flip over (like a monohull), but with it mounted so far forward it actually made steering difficult. Not one of my greater ideas... That jib spinnaker idea wasn't so hot either.

My old Oasis

Image

We had a lot of fun with that boat and put a pile of miles on it (probably about a thousand if I had to guess). Good memories. Actually this is the boat I traded in to get my first Tandem Island right when they came out.

Bob


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:41 am 
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Chris (Jcanracer):
I got your PM about the keel weight, I have built quite a few different variations, I think the one that is the most useful is a piece of 2 inch PVC pipe about 2-3 ft long filled with lead beads (scuba diving weight), when just put caps on the ends. I suspended the weight on the both the Oasis and the revo by just attaching 4 lengths of spectra string (that's the grey rudder string used on the rudder system), that string is around 500 lbs test and extremely strong, you can get it from your hobie dealer for I think around $.22 cents a foot, I use the stuff quite a bit so I by 30 ft at a time, and just keep it in the garage (handy stuff). You don't have to do anything special when parking on the beach or anything, it just moves out of the way, who cares if it gets scuffed up a little.
Here is a rendering of one on the bottom of one of my boats (from when I made the idea up):

Image

This one is the one I made for my TI, I also have one made for the Revo, and another for the Oasis.

NOTE: It doesn't need to be pointed, just regular PVC caps work fine.

The TI needs close to 50 lbs
The Oasis needs around 30 lbs
and the Revo needs around 25 lbs of lead

Lead is kind of expensive (around $4.00 per lb), so I stole the lead from my wife's scuba diving weight belt, lets keep that on the down low, since she hasn't noticed it yet).

Here is another one that I use on my Tandem Island that fits into the mirage drive cassette, and is retractable, and also can swing from one side to the other (like a swinging keel). I actually still use this one when I'm out kayak sailing my TI.

Image

Here it is retracted, it clears the ground when on the scupper cart:
Image

Here is me sitting on the edge of the boat, it's impossible to tip over the boat. (however as you can see I'm all wet, this was attempt #2, it does nothing to improve your ability to balance if your un-coordinated like me ( LOL)

Image

Here is one of my old Revo's, I used the PVC pipe type keel weight on that boat, and sold it with the boat, when I sold the revo last year.
Image

Here is a pic of my TI in kayak mode, I use the retractable keel weight in the rear mirage slot, If it gets really shallow I just pull the whole works out and lay it on the deck. Unfortunately because the TI is so large, the keel weight has to be around 50-60 lbs in order to be able to use that large 33 sq ft rigid wing sail in kayak mode.
Image

The nice thing about wing sails is they have hardly any heeling force (the force trying to tip you over)so they are very safe for kayak sailing. I still don't take that out in kayak mode if the winds are over ten mph, just to much sail for a kayak (that wing sail has almost as much sail power as the stock TI 90 sq ft mainsail). That wing sail is 20 ft tall off the water, so you have to furl it and take it down when on rivers with trees (LOL didn't think that one thru)

The weighted keels do slow you down a little (drag), and unfortunately if you sail near weeds or grass, it inevitably gets all caught up in there. I'd go with the side kicks, and turbo fins, and forget about a dagger board if it were me. Just remember the whole works (Hobies complete system) is really all designed to be used while pedaling ( ie... the sail, sailing rudder, sidekicks, etc), they really know their stuff when it comes to designing kayak sailing kayaks (why fight it LOL).
Bob

Hope this gives you some ideas. Most people use Hobies inflatable AMA's (sidekicks), they are not very expensive, and from what I hear really work well. If it were me I would try them first.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:08 pm 
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Brilliant stuff! lots of food for thought.
Apologies to the OP for the thread drift, I'll be quiet now :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:11 pm 
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Well it sounds like the consensus is to get ST fins and a furling system, so thats what i will start with, thanks


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:12 pm 
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ST fins are the Square Top fins that go on the existing fin masts - the ones you want are the ST TURBO fins as they are longer!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:04 pm 
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stobbo wrote:
ST fins are the Square Top fins that go on the existing fin masts - the ones you want are the ST TURBO fins as they are longer!

Right, also the turbos come with 2 fins, i should install one on each mirage drive? Also someone said to buy the sailing rudder, but it is my understanding that the oasis comes with the sailing rudder standard now?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:06 pm 
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You're probably right about the Oasis rudder. Don't mix and match fins -- it accomplishes nothing and literally rocks the boat (they need to balance against each other). 8)


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